I do like to hang out at a few other forums that have multiple dimensions regarding personal spiritual beliefs, and quite often I get to read the "If I could just," types of statesments. Like, "if I could, I would make all of the world a peaceful place to live." Or, if I could, I would make sure no one went hungry." My particular, If I could, is I wish I could answer every theological question to everybody's satisfaction. I do not see that happening any time soon but I am still working on it. What is your own, "If I could" or even "If I were God for a moment I would?" It could get a little hairy but, give it a try anyway.
I would replace the GREED gene with the COOPERATION and UNDERSTANDING genes - seems to me all the world's (non natural) ills are due to incorrect balancing of those three traits. If I could squeeze in another quickie, it would be everyone that believes in me, by whatever name and doctrine, implicitly understands and accepted that the fact that another believes in my also under another doctrine - it is the "believe in me" that is important and not the dogma; and those that do not believe in me both understand the implicit right to, of those that do, without judgment or scorn and are likewise understood by those that do. In short that everyone understand that it doesn't matter what you believe as long as your allow other their beliefs and right to live peacefully under them.
My response is similar to yours Bobby. Being apart of the church ministry, I have people coming to me everyday asking all these difficult questions. Some questions I'd be able to answer easily, but there are questions that are too hard to answer, even when I ask for guidance during prayer.
I'll turn it around and give an example of something that man should not have control over.... we owned a dragstrip for a while and one summer, a racer and I were standing under a small roofline, listening in to several conversations at once, as we all avoided a bold thunderstorm. The two talkers in question, left, and Eddie whispered to me, "it is a really good thing that no man has control over the weather and rain and that God looks after all that". As I pondered that, he then says, "you imagine those two fellers could agree on anything, let alone who gets the good rain and who gets the floods and such." Thus, my question would be, just how does God decide what the weather for the world is going to be? Is it all really chaos and you get what ever comes your way, or does he delegate daily weather to Mother Nature, so he can stay out of the complaints and whining that most of us do. Please hit 2, to speak with Mother Nature.....or some such. bests to all.
Yeah, that's just like a man - blame it on the woman. The conversation would be something like this - God, "you know I really messed up with that whole flood thing", the angels, "ummm....", God, "I know, I'll just blame it on Mother Nature!". Just kidding - just having a little fun. Beside, being a woman, I always just blame it on the kids!!
Starting from a tangent if I may - if you have ever had a "discussion" with an atheist, they throw all manor of science in your face as "proof" that God doesn't exist and isn't necessary. Usually it is easy for me to counter because almost always two things are true:1. they are regurgitating an old argument and actually know very little about science themselves; and/or 2. there argument is actually aimed at religion and in no way denies God, just "proves" (or attempts to) that a particular text, holy-man or preacher has stated. I know a lot about science; I have an MSc and I keep abreast of latest developments in several branches (mostly Physics) thereof - so can usually (in fact there is not a time I haven't been able to - but I presume there could be) either explain the science to them better so they understand their error, show them the argument is out-dated/disproved/unprovable/etc or offer a counter from science that argues the opposite with just as much evidence. For the second point - I believe religious people are often just as blameworthy as atheists in this regard. This brings me back to your question about God choosing weather... An atheist would argue that God is not necessary or is not part of the process because we can explain why weather happens, where and when, by the change of air pressure, temperature, precipitation, humidity, and so on. It rains because the air pressure is stable enough that the heavier rain clouds are not moved somewhere else, it drops here rather than there because the clouds are heavy, the time of day, location and season effect the cloud differently (more/less direct heat from the sun, angle, amount of atmosphere it has to cut through, amount of and type of pollution in the air at that place, and literally thousands of other little variables. Weathermen cannot guarantee to ever be 100% accurate (other than in hindsight) because there is no way not account for all these variables. The religious zealot would ignore all that science and simple say - "Nah God knew we needed rain this month, because we planted rice last week (or whatever)". These are both blinkered views and at odds simply because of that! To me - as a scientifically trained person that believes in God (and many scientists do!) - the zealot is less a believer than the atheist in this scenario. Why? Because it assumes (and this is often the atheists argument) that God has to manually intervene in every single event ever nanosecond across the whole universe. That is, in my opinion, underestimating God wholesale! Did God spend 6 days clicking his fingers? or did the big bag (we can still hear the echos of) do it? Answer: Yes, no, sort of. If you DO believe in God then you must also believe in His ultimate intelligence, right? Do we get up to turn the TV over ten times a day? We did up to the 70s - then we invented something that will do it for us - a remote. See where I am headed? If this super intelligence needed weather, needed to provide warmth and light, but also not too much, to sustain the ecosystem - why would He go for the manual way, rather than designing it to happen that way automatically - like a huge powerful sun far enough away to not over heat us, but near enough to provide enough heat and gravity so that the whole thing would spin, thereby providing an alternating area of heat/light , but enough time to cool again - like the electric heater turning on, coming to temp and clicking off again until it hit minimum and start over again. So my answer is this: God doesn't decide on the weather day to day place to place, He doesn't need to! - He set a process in motion 14.5 billion years ago that would follow a set of rules (the rules of physics) that would allow for a universe that could sustain life without need for continual fiddling with the controls. Now which is more intelligent and forward thinking, and utter genius, I ask you? We have evolved the intelligence thus far to begin to understand some of these rules, how they mesh and support other processes in a massive tapestry of interconnected action and reaction and inter-dependencies - it is a far more beautiful and intricate design, and one in which God is far more evident, than some white bearded humanoid getting bored one day and shouting out "Let there be light!"
If it was up to me I'd expunge from people's minds the idea that 'God or the Devil did it' 'God wants it that way' 'God's will' 'Thank God' etc and make them realize that they alone are responsible for their actions. That they have within them the capacity to overcome the hardships of life through their own strength of character. That bad things happen to good people because the Universe doesn't care. It doesn't understand 'fair.' 'God' isn't being hard to figure out sometimes, like when disasters befall us, that's just the Universe... not caring. Only humans understand the concept of what's fair. We don't have the power to control nature but we do have the mental capacity to understand the extent of what powers we do have, and accept our limitations, without ascribing all responsibility to some higher power. Time we grew out of that. Really guys, people can be so much better than they've been acting lately if they put their minds to it and stopped shrugging off their responsibilities onto 'God'..
Val, you know me to believer in God, too; and yet I do agree that there are some really valid points in what you are saying. I think (like Richard just said) that there is a HUGE difference between religion and believing in God. The Bible tells us that the rain falls on the just and the unjust; so what you are saying about the world (and weather) being uncaring rather than unfair; is exactly right. Storms and hurricanes hit where they hit, and not because God is mad at somebody. Truthfully, I believe that most of the things that happen to us in our lives, good or bad; are the results of our own actions. Don't sit on the railroad tracks, and then blame GOD because the train hit you ! Again, much of the terrible killing and treatment of both humans and animals has ben done in the name of religion. You are right, and it is not limited to any one religion; and most of it comes from ignorant people doing what evil people tell them to do and the belief that God will punish them if they don't do it. If all of the religion did disappear from the world; then people probably could and would get along better. Anything that is used to control humanity is not good when it causes them to fight and hate each other. That being said; there is still the question of how this world got here, and why it developed as it did. There are a lot of questions that the big bang theory and the evolution theory simply don't answer. That is why you yourself are looking for answers, why I am looking, why Richard is looking. I think that we all have a lot to bring to this discussion, and can maybe find some answers together as we pick truth from fables.
Now there Richard is a theory a reasonable atheist can live with, not believe in, but comfortably live with. (To repeat what I said in another thread because I couldn't remember who'd come up with this one... it's a win/win.) Creationists are kept happy and atheists can ignore it because it doesn't impinge on their lives. If we could just implement that by means of separating creation theory from the rest of the behavioural mumbo jumbo the world would be a happier place. (Of course there is the danger that it could break the internet. Forums would collapse in puffs of dust if Theism ceased to be a bone of contention. Thanks Yvonne, but you are used to my rambles, others are still trying to figure me out and that can take a while. Seeing signs of some interesting exchanges , we'll see how that goes.
The 'mumbo jumbo' can be useful too, if used correctly. A good Christian should be able to give you a list of stories that Jesus told, such as The Good Samaritan/Prodigal Son/etc, these are allegories - an old Jewish system to teach uneducated people through a story with a moral (a fable if you will). The problem I have with people I term "Bible Thumpers" is their absolute belief in the word for word text of the Bible/Quran/etc - ignoring that they are rife with self contradictions anyway, they miss the point entirely! It is not the text of the story that is important, but the allegoric message - the moral. That being said, if we accept it on the converse, a set of moral codes within a series of stories (that may or may not be real) then there is a lot to be gained individually and as a society. I like Buddha's response to the creation question. The story goes something like this: Buddha was doing his usual walks, with his students walking with him, when one asked him about how the world was created. Buddha answered, "Ask me about the middle path; about me how to relieve anxiety; about how to live free from such without attachment, and in this moment; if you want to know of science, ask a scientist". That was over 2500 years ago! Religion has tied itself in knots over the centuries answering questions it had no right to try to - and it is these that they now lose the argument on time and time again.
Apologies for 'mumbo jumbo' I must remember that I'm in politer company than I've become used to on forums. By 'behavioural m j' I meant the threatening and sometimes downright gruesome messages of the dire consequences of failure to conform to the rules as set by people who have no real right to set them. Threats of punishment are never more conducive to good behaviour than rewards. But the rewards too are couched in terms that offer loopholes for the 'preachers' to duck through. The rewards are only redeemable on death. How clever, but I doubt that was the original message either really. One's own clear conscience should be reward enough surely? .... But it's late and I can waffle on with this all night.... so onwards. Those rules are their interpretations of texts that were really no different to Aesop's Fables in their intent. They were analogies to impart a good idea on how to live and behave. The rewards of feeling 'warm and fuzzy' for doing the right thing over the guilt of having done the wrong. You have made the point for me that many professional theists spend too much time studying the story and miss the message it conveys. These are the people which make institulionalized religion so unpalatable to me, because they are the people who endeavour to force me to conform to their misinterpreted version of the rules, not to the original ethics behind the the original rules. They impinge on my life without my permission. There is nothing much at all wrong with the 'rules' as originally intended, on reflection they are exactly the same rules, NT rules, that I and people I live among live by whatever our beliefs. They are wise solutions to the problems inherent when many people are living in close proximity. They allow society to survive without descending into anarchy. I just fail to see how or why it necessary to assign 'divinity' to them. They are just common sense thinking by humans who had the time to sit and think about the best way to run things. I can accept that Jesus was an historical figure who was not only a fine philosopher and psychologist, but an extraordinary communicator. I just can't see the necessity to view him in the light that religious people do. Great people don't need to be 'supernatural' to be great people. But that is just my view and I'm quite content that it's not shared, it's really not my problem. The interesting part of it all to me is why others so ardently believe in what I don't see. I don't feel any sense of something missing from my life at all, so what is missing from others' that is being filled by their beliefs? It's not what they believe that fascinates me but why they believe. Or more precisely why they need to believe. But I digress... as usual. We appear to have reached similar conclusions about misinterpretations by totally different routes, and that is the best part of having these discussions. Finding points of similarity enable people to compare and rate their 'beliefs/philosophies/behaviour patterns with those around them. It'a easy enough to say 'I believe because I just do." Well, I don't because I just don't, but that doesn't explain why we do or don't does it? I'm not looking for 'fact fights' I leave that to hard core atheists with chips on their shoulders. I'm looking for what people get out of their beliefs that I don't seem to need. There must be something in it because it's held so dear and defended so fiercely. But right now I'm off to get some sleep before I topple sideways off the chair. Goodnight all.
Val , I am also intensely interested in why and how humans were created, or evolved, or were diverted from their original progression by DNA modification, or whatever. However, if we are going to look at these human beginnings apart from the religious view point, and just conjecture about the development of man, then I think that it would be much more appropriate to carry on the discussion elsewhere than in the sub-forum of religion. Since this whole catagory is basically for discussing religious issues or Bible studies; and what you want to do is to look at things without the religious beliefs added; why don't you open up a whole new thread for us to do that. Right now, we have parts of it here, as well as some overflow into word origins, and into conspiracy. There is no particular area to talk about archeology, and early man beside the conspiracy sub-forum at present; and that includes things such as mythology, and possible ancient lands and people, such as Atlantis. Maybe Ken can create us a sub-forum in the conspiracy forum where we can discuss creation stories, early man, and world changes in prehistory ? ? Or, even in the word origins sub-forum, since the development of man is integrated with the development of language itself.
This sub-forum would be perfectly acceptable, given that atheism is itself a religion. What I don't want to get into is a situation where no one is able to create a thread to discuss religion without having to debate the existence or non-existence of God with some atheist zealot. There is a place for that within the "Faith & Religion sub-forum, but it's place isn't every place.
And, as "Mal" so wonderfully put it, things have actually come full circle.(at least up to this point) I said, at the onset, that I would like to be able to explain everything, to anyone, until they were satisfied with the answer. (paraphrased) Now, I hope all can see why I would like it to be so. I cannot explain what an earthquake really is. I have been in a couple of them, but to explain the feeling of total helplessness is beyond any explanation or gathering of adjectives imaginable. You have to experience it in order to know what an earthquake is. My wife knows how much I love storms. When I was younger I would stand out on the beach during a thunderstorm with the lightning touching down and the waves pounding and myself being hammered by the wind and hard rain. The feeling I get from it is beyond anormous! Adrenaline rush does not even touch what I feel, but can I accurately explain it? Not a chance. All you will get out of it is a weather report and nothing more unless you are absolutely empathic and can feel directly from my brain. There is nothing I can say to anyone that will make any sense the reason I not only believe in God but also believe Him. Some years ago, there was no one, nothing, man nor beast I would relinquish any control to. I was in control and good, bad or indifferent that was that because I needed no one nor nothing to help me, or guide me in anything concerning life or death. Dern the torpedoes, full speed ahead! Not wanting to get into any huge details, something happened that changed my entire outlook and I finally allowed something besides myself to enter my life. For the first time, I felt love. I never knew the feeling before, nor ever gave it because I knew nothing of it, and still do not know how to descibe it! Now, to answer why I "Fiercely" hold onto my faith. Because I do not ever want to be the Bobby COLD ever again! Would you give up someone who loves you and you love them? I doubt it seriously. I could wax on and on about this until War and Peace would look like a novelette in comparison. P.S. Sorry for using up two reply areas! I accidently hit "post" (I think) and it did. Then I hit edit and did the rest of my post and when I hit "save changes" it told me I had 15 min. to do my editing and zango I was stuck with only the first part of my post. Next time, I won't run to the rest room while doing an edit. * * No problem. I merged them. -- Admin