A Dishonest Debate

Discussion in 'Automotive' started by Thomas Stearn, Oct 13, 2018.

  1. Harry Havens

    Harry Havens Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    635
    Seriously!! A lot of cars were sold in the US, due to GREEN diesel. There are nearly 400K such diesels sitting in fields across the country and VW has ceased to sell diesels in the US, as sales plummeted.


     
    #16
    Frank Sanoica likes this.
  2. Don Alaska

    Don Alaska Supreme Member
    Task Force Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2018
    Messages:
    11,066
    Likes Received:
    20,462
    I find it interesting that the oil companies on the North Slope of Alaska use all diesel vehicles and they are never shut down except for maintenance, which is done inside a heated garage. As a result, when these vehicles are sold at surplus auction, you may get a truck with 20,000 miles or less on the odometer, well maintained, but having thousands of hours on the engine; it is a bit deceptive to the unknowing.
     
    #17
    Frank Sanoica likes this.
  3. Shirley Martin

    Shirley Martin Supreme Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2015
    Messages:
    55,669
    Likes Received:
    23,296
    Why does diesel fuel cost more than regular fuel?
     
    #18
    Frank Sanoica likes this.
  4. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Senior Staff
    Staff Member Senior Staff Greeter Task Force Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    24,327
    Likes Received:
    42,630
    I don't know. It used to be cheaper.
     
    #19
  5. Shirley Martin

    Shirley Martin Supreme Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2015
    Messages:
    55,669
    Likes Received:
    23,296
    It's a lot higher here. I have often wondered why.
     
    #20
  6. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Senior Staff
    Staff Member Senior Staff Greeter Task Force Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    24,327
    Likes Received:
    42,630
    It's quite a bit more expensive here too. I don't know if it's the actual cost that accounts for the differentiation or if diesel is being taxed more highly. Perhaps someone here will know. Diesel is commonly used by commercial vehicles so it might be an extra tax on evil big business.
     
    #21
  7. Harry Havens

    Harry Havens Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    635
    The federal tax on diesel is 6¢ more than on gasoline. Week ending national price...

    upload_2018-10-14_21-32-47.png

    Around 2008, there was an international movement to lower sulphur content in diesel...
    upload_2018-10-14_21-48-22.png

    upload_2018-10-14_21-50-9.png
    Germany- Gasoline $6.74USD per gallon. Diesel $6.09USD per Gallon. Exchange EURO/USD 1.15
    A couple of weeks back. gasoline was $6.49 USD per gallon in UK, with diesel at approximately $6.70USD per gallon. EXCHANGE GBP/USD 1.31

    As for the current price of diesel in the US, distillates which include diesel are heavily exported and current inventory of diesel, while on par with last in year in terms of barrels... is toward the very low end of the 5 year average...
    upload_2018-10-14_22-2-50.png
     
    #22
    Thomas Stearn and Ken Anderson like this.
  8. Frank Sanoica

    Frank Sanoica Supreme Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    9,297
    Likes Received:
    10,619
    @Shirley Martin
    Historically, as far back as I've been aware of fuel costs, diesel fuel has ALWAYS retailed at far lower prices than gasoline. The reversal of the two has not been in effect all that long, perhaps 10 years?

    Making diesel fuel involves far less complicated reactions than gasoline, as it can be made from almost any distillable hydrocarbon, while gasolines are carefully compounded to maintain an advertised minimum octane rating. The octane compounding is done very carefully, and is even based on weather predictions! In reality, gasoline may contain only a few compounds, or many, and still be sold as "gasoline". Benzine, a known carcinogen, was once present in gasoline in significant amounts; today, it's only a trace. That's not to say the predominating compound present, Hexane, Heptane, and Octane, all usable fuels by themselves, are totally harmless. Some gasolines often are predominantly Hexane, the smelly stuff you are aware of if you open a bottle of rubber cement. Hexane is a good dissolver of latex rubber. When your credit cards arrive by mail, all nicely glued to a paper backing, that "snot" one can peel off was accomplished by use of Hexane!

    Plain old heating oil will run a diesel engine. However, sulfur emissions have in recent years been attacked by the environmental folks, MAYBE with good cause, maybe not. They blame sulfur emissions for the "acid rain" which has disrupted fresh water animal life (supposedly). Little has been said about the enormous amounts of sulfur emitted by volcanoes, like Kilawea in Hawaii, because nothing can be effectively done about it, while compounding diesel fuel to contain less sulfur is expensive. WHEW!
    Frank
     
    #23
    Don Alaska likes this.
  9. Don Alaska

    Don Alaska Supreme Member
    Task Force Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2018
    Messages:
    11,066
    Likes Received:
    20,462
    Apparently removing sulfur from diesel is what caused the increased price. I don't know if they had to add something to replace the sulfur. Here diesel prices go up in the winter as the same distillates are used for heating oil.
     
    #24
    Frank Sanoica likes this.
  10. Thomas Stearn

    Thomas Stearn Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2018
    Messages:
    2,690
    Likes Received:
    2,530
    @Harry Havens, no doubt, consumers were cheated regardless of whether they bought into advertising claims or not. Yet advertising claims is one thing, what people believe and what really drives them is another.
    I mentioned the real motivation behind driving a diesel car in my intro. One of them has always been the spread between diesel and gas prices with the former always having been lower in Germany. (Thanks for your charts.)
    There are two main reasons for that: One is technical because diesel is not as refined as gasoline and, thus, cheaper. The other reason is political in the sense that the government wants/wanted to favor those who have to cover long(er) distances, specifically, commuters, freelancers and small businesses.
     
    #25
  11. Harry Havens

    Harry Havens Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    635
    I had always heard diesel was favored due to being cheaper. Factoring that both gasoline and diesel has the same VAT applied, the main difference is that other tax which is much steeper on gasoline. The diesel being €47.04 @ litre ($2.047 @ gallon) and gasoline being €.6545 @ litre ($2.849 @ gallon). Removing that tax equates to gasoline being about 15¢ per gallon less than diesel. BUT, the gasoline in Europe is typically what we call Midgrade to Premium in the US and thus the price difference is nearly the same.

    As for diesel car sales in Germany, I have read they are off nearly 20% Y/Y 2018/2017 and down about 45% since Volkswagen got caught, which mirrors the overall EU data on new car sales. Oddly, those "defective used vehicles" are being resold to Italy, Austria and the Central European countries. Perhaps they are much heartier stock.
     
    #26
  12. Frank Sanoica

    Frank Sanoica Supreme Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    9,297
    Likes Received:
    10,619
    @Don Alaska
    I believe Sulfur is actually an undesirable, the environmental result of it's presence notwithstanding. Sulfur in fuel contributes to the formation of harmful deposits, often acids, which casually eat away engines' guts subtly. Removing it is a two-edge "stab" for compounders: costs dough to get it out, then costs dough again to acceptably get rid of it.

    The astute diesel users have been known to purchase stove oil in quantity, store it, and use it in their diesel vehicles, in violation of Federal Law. Doing so drops the price over "dieseline" by the amount of tax: stove oil is not taxable as road-use fuel. Cummins Engine Company has often campaigned the greatness of their product by doing live demonstrations in which they ran their engine on buttermilk (!) For how long, or with what harm done, I've never found out. Fact is, to obtain acceptable results overall from diesel, compounding the stuff with certain added ingredients greatly enhances performance, as well as cost!
    Frank
     
    #27
  13. Thomas Stearn

    Thomas Stearn Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2018
    Messages:
    2,690
    Likes Received:
    2,530
    That's true. They can't be resold to Africa because they would still be too expensive for those markets.
     
    #28
    Harry Havens likes this.

Share This Page