Many here have not heard of Izzy (Israel) Folau. Nor Rugby Union. But these two have clashed with sporting bureaucracy in my country over Folau's social media comments that "all homosexuals will rot in hell". So much so that the Australian Rugby Union has terminated Folau's multi-million dollar playing contract. This decision has polarized the Australian community. There is a question of freedom of speech here. There is a question of having the will to speak your religious belief without punishment or retribution. On the other side of the coin we have the do gooders who say more discretion should be used when it comes to religious doctrine. A footnote Australia voted for same gender marriage in late 2017.
I wrote in another thread a while ago that I view religion as a "lighthouse" that shouldn't ever change. If it was sited properly to begin with, it should stay the same, directing vessels or people in the proper and safe way to travel or lead their lives. The lighthouse shows the hazards, but doesn't judge the travelers, and doesn't change with the seasons or the decades/centuries. The traveler/vessels can choose to follow the course shown by the lighthouse...or not.
I really like your description, @Don Alaska , and I think that it fits perfectly for what religion was actually intended to be...... a lighthouse or guidepost for a person to follow , and not something we are supposed to enforce on another person. As a Christian, my belief is that we are commissioned to share what is called the Good News, which is that Jesus loves us. We are specifically told that we are NOT supposed to be judging other people and their life, and telling a person that God is sending someone to hell is not giving them any information that will make them want to believe in God, or convince them that God loves them...... and it is most certainly judging them and pronouncing their sentence as well. By the definition that someone is going to be condemned and damned for their lifestyle, is to suggest that if they stop doing that one thing, then they will go to heaven; but that is obviously not true either, because there are a lot of things that the Bible speaks against as sins, and all of us do some of those things. In fact, not judging other people is one of the main things we are told not to do ! Actually, I believe that this is one of the things that is being “pushed” , along with race and political choices, just to divide people against each other, and turn each group against another group.
We have the same kerfuffle here in the States. In the recent past, a bakery shop owner was sued because she refused to bake a wedding cake for a same-sex wedding. She prevailed in court, but at what cost to her for simply following her Christian beliefs? Seems that some groups feel that their rights are more valuable than the rights of others.
This the case @Beth Gallagher? In June, the US Supreme Court sided with a Colorado baker who refused to make a cake for a same-sex wedding back in 2012, although justices avoided a wider ruling on religious exemptions for businesses. Something similar happened to a Australian lesbian couple prior to their wedding in NZ in 2017. No legal proceedings. This was a few month prior to the Australian same gender marriage referendum.
The latest is that Folau was close to deleting his "all homosexuals will burn in hell" tweet when his father a pastor talked him out of it by saying that if he removed the message "it was against the Lord and he (Folau) too would taste the fires of hell".
It sounds like this is a thread of agreeable perspectives. I might summarize it as saying that a Christian should know the truth and feel compelled to share it, while at the same time not judging individuals who disagree. For me, it's always a challenge to condemn certain beliefs and practices without expressing anger and resentment towards the people involved. It's a constant battle between living your convictions and showing love to others. In the end, I try to maintain a balance of speaking out for truth on vital issues while showing respect and kindness towards opposing individuals. Even so, moral relativists will be offended by Christian standards and consider us arrogant for having such absolute values, and hateful bigots for expressing such views. Chick-fil-A is another good example with the ones above on the hate and intolerance directed towards Christian views these days. By merely supporting marriage between a man and a women as right, the homosexual community lashed back with a vengeance of hate mail, death threats, and boycotts. Clearly, Christians do not engage the political or public arena on a fair playing field. We're attacked for our beliefs and for daring to express them. It's a sad state of the times we live in. I think the extreme political correct era we face now does in fact inhibit the boldness of too many Christians today. In their perceived obligation to not offend anyone, they stay silent on many of the important religious and social issues of the day - be it defending Christianity as right over other religions, affirming the Bible's history and authority as true, forcing the teaching of evolution over creationism, accepting the misguided notion of separation of church and state, or condemning homosexuality and abortion as morally wrong. The evidence of passiveness on these issues is demonstrated alone by the the political candidates elected and the issues they fight for. Considering that 80% of Americans still profess themselves as Christians, it's shameful that the country has become so godless and secular just during the past 60 years or so. In short, Christians need to speak out and be more publicly active in spreading the word of the gospel, fighting to retain America's Christian heritage, and resisting the moral decline of the nation. Our founding fathers understood this and expressed it repeatedly in 15 proclamations, several presidential speeches, and countless other public writings. For 150 years, this was an agreeable behavior; now it's become politically incorrect. Nonetheless, it's the right thing to do. Let's care enough to get involved, to speak and act boldly like Paul and the apostles did, but to do it with kindness and love as Jesus commands. I think we can openly state a belief that opposes others' without trying to damn them to hell.
I've mostly always thought religeon was not politically correct. That is to say religion should not exist at all in politics, following the rule Religeon is God's exclusive domain and politics belongs only to man and its not good to mix them. I may need to rethink this but not sure yet.
A Historical Perspective on American Politics and Religion Your view of keeping religion separated from politics is certainly shared by many today Bob, but it's not been the case for America during it's first 350+ years. Since the early settlement of this new world nation, the inhabitants' religious values and governing politics have been intricately intertwined and dependent upon each other. This is evident by the copies we have today of the 1st Charter of Virginia (1606), the Mayflower Compact (1620), the Charter of Maryland (1632), the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut (1639), the Charter of Rhode Island (1663), the Massachusetts Charter (1691), and numerous other historical documents available for review today. Each of these founding documents in various ways express the primary purpose of America's settlement was for the propagation of the Christian religion and a government established according to God. The belief in God and acceptance of Christianity was universal in our nation's early days, and it was expected to be a part of everyone's daily life, both private and public. No doubt, religion and politics were NOT separate affairs. Our 250 or so founding fathers inherited, understood, and affirmed the critically dependent ties between religion, government, and a free society. Despite current sentiment that these founding fathers were all Atheists, Deists, and evil slaveholders, the evidence we have today from thousands of documents indicate that all of these founders believed in God and almost all believed in the Christian gospel. Together, they repeatedly made statements and took action to support their strong beliefs that America was founded by Divine providence and was entirely dependent upon God for its protection and blessings. Our political leaders of the day were not only publicly religious, they clearly expressed Christianity as the only one true religion and a need for both the nation's leaders and people to acknowledge that faith and follow its virtues. We have copies of 15 proclamations from the Continental Congress, hundreds of other presidential and governor proclamations, daily congressional notes, public speeches, court rulings, and personal writings adding up to thousands of documents detailing this early American Christian heritage. There is no doubt that our founding fathers DID mix religion and politics together. In fact, it was the establishment of a Republic upon Christianity that made America unique, exceptional, and successful. I wish I could share more of the information I have on this, but here's a sampling of 10 quotes from the books, articles, and videos I've collected on this matter. Read them carefully and you may be amazed at the sentiments expressed that would now be considered politically incorrect and strongly objectionable. "Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils ... We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning ... in order to open the meeting with prayer." Elias Boudinot - Continental Congress President, framer of the Bill of Rights; speech in the First Provincial Congress of New Jersey, 1775. "The Commander-in-Chief directs that Divine service be performed every sunday at 11 o’clock, in those Brigades to which there are Chaplains - those that have none to attend the places of worship nearest to them - It is expected that Officers of all Ranks will by their attendance set an example for their men. While we are zealously performing the duties of good Citizens and soldiers we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion - To the distinguished Character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to add the more distinguished Character of Christian." George Washington - American Revolution War Commander in Chief of Continental Army, 1st President of the United States of America; written order to troops at Valley Forge, May 2, 1778. "God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever..." Thomas Jefferson - principle author of the Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress Delegate, 3rd President of the United States; Jefferson Monument: Wall inscription taken from Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782. "I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings that, 'except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel... I therefore beg leave to move that, henceforth, prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.'' Benjamin Franklin - signer of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, Continental Congress Delegate, Governor of Pennsylvania; address to the Continental Congress, June 28, 1787. "[T]he only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government is the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible." Benjamin Rush - signer of the Declaration of Independence, ratifier of the U.S. Constitution, Father of Public School System; publication: & A Defense of the Use of the Bible as a Schoolbook.& March 2, 1791. "...Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams - signer of the Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress Delegate, 2nd president of the United States of America; address to Massachusetts Militia, October 11, 1798. "Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people... By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty." Samuel Chase - signer of the Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress Delegate, Associate Justice of U.S. Supreme Court:- Justice Samuel Chase rending the court’s decision in the Maryland Supreme Court case of Runkel v. Winemiller, 1799. "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." John Jay -Continental CongressPresident, Author of the Federalist Papers, First Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Governor of New York; letter to John Murray, October 12, 1816. "There must be religion... [T]he most important of all lessons is the denunciation of ruin to every state that rejects the precepts of religion." Gouverneur Morris - Continental Congress Delegate, signer of the U.S. Constitution, U.S. Senator; discourse delivered before the New York Historical Society, September 4, 1816. "And at all events, it is impossible for those, who believe in the truth of Christianity, as a divine revelation, to doubt, that it is the especial duty of government to foster, and encourage it among all the citizens and subjects... Now, there will probably be found few persons in this, or any other Christian country, who would deliberately contend, that it was unreasonable, or unjust to foster and encourage the Christian religion generally, as a matter of sound policy, as well as of revealed truth. In fact, every American colony, from its foundation down to the revolution, with the exception of Rhode Island, (if, indeed, that state be an exception,) did openly, by the whole course of its laws and institutions, support and sustain, in some form, the Christian religion; and almost invariably gave a peculiar sanction to some of its fundamental doctrines. And this has continued to be the case in some of the states down to the present period, without the slightest suspicion that it was against the principles of public law, or republican liberty. Indeed, in a republic, there would seem to be a peculiar propriety in viewing the Christian religion, as the great basis, on which it must rest for its support and permanence, if it be, what it has ever been deemed by its truest friends to be, the religion of liberty... Probably at the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation." Joseph Story - Father of American jurisprudence, U.S. Supreme Court Justice; "Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States," 1833. A more thorough defense of America's historical relationship between politics and religion would detail the actions taken by the founding fathers and subsequent government leaders. This would have to include the funding, printing, and distribution by Congress of America's first English Bible, the government purchase of lands for Christian churches, the government's involvement in converting Indians to Christianity, the use of the Bible (and two other religious books) as the primary reader in the public school system for 150 years, the nationwide implementation of blue laws for the sole purpose of promoting Christian virtue, the issuance of more than 390 religious government proclamations, and the incorporation of hundreds, if not thousands, of Christian symbols into the country's public buildings, spaces, and monuments. Even so, the above sample of quotes should be sufficient to show that American politics and religion have been intimately tied together since the nation's founding. This has been the case - until the mid 1900's. Since 1948, the U.S. Supreme Court has made 8 rulings that have specifically opposed our Christian heritage and founding principles that made this country unique - and blessedly successful many would maintain. The result of this has been the secularization of the country in all government affairs, based upon a false basis of separation of church and state. With all Christianity removed from the government actions, public arena, and educational system, the Bible undermined by (false) evolutionary teaching, and the most significant moral values being disrespected, we have reached a point in our country's history that would appall our founding fathers. Most Americans would concede that our country has been richly blessed, and hopefully a majority (being 70-80% professing Christians depending on poll basis) would attribute that blessing to God. How then can we expect God to continue blessing the nation that rejects him publicly? May I conclude with these final two suggestions? The individuals fighting (successfully) to make this country godless by keeping religion out of the government, schools, and public arena should stop to consider the detrimental impacts that come to such a nation - a decline of moral values, increase in social problems, and loss of many freedoms. This is occurring today, and as Christian principles are suppressed throughout our culture nationwide, the results will only worsen. As our founding fathers said, the success of this unprecedented Republic nation depends on the virtuous foundation of Christianity. It is to everyone's benefit, including those from all or no faiths, to uphold the Christian values bred into this nation. Finally, to the God believing Americans who profess to be Christians: shame on the majority who now believe and accept evolution, though it counters the historicity of Genesis, undermines belief in the Bible, and lacks little, if any scientific evidence; shame on the majority who now accept and promote the doctrine of separation of church and state, though use of this metaphor has been grossly abused to accomplish just the opposite of what our founding fathers intended for this Christian nation; shame on the majority who now support liberal politicians that oppose Christian values or support organizations (like the ACLU, FFRF, AUSCS) that actively fight the Christian religion within this country; and shame on the majority that now passively accept the killing of babies (61 million to date) and advance homosexual behavior as culturally desirable norms, though these two national sins are comparable to the same two causing God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. I'd suggest that Christians learn a bit about our country's true Christian heritage, study the evidence of creationism over evolution, speak out against the Biblical sins being advanced in this country, support outspoken political leaders who promote Christian beliefs and values, and properly educate and influence as many young people as possible - for they are the misguided ones who control the nation's future. In summary, America has a long history of mixing religion and politics. Many deny or reject that history and are fighting to change the entire foundation of the country from Christian to secular. Unfortunately, they're winning. I'd plead that those who know the truth and care about the decline of our nation show some boldness: speak up, vote right, and be politically active. Being a majority, if Christians would simply act like Christians, this country wouldn't be in a secular trend. We would all do well to keep God on our side and to maintain the Christian heritage that allowed his Divine providence to build, protect, and bless this exceptional nation.
@Joseph Carl - I'm impressed by your fervent beliefs, however there are those here who don't share them. I personally am an agnostic who believes in evolution. As for the 70-80% "professing" to be Christian, I have seen the actions of some of those and believe me, actions speak louder than words. We all need to be accepting of others and live by the golden rule. I agree with equal rights, but they should be EQUAL, not tipping the scale to one group/individual because of feigned moral outrage or entitlement.
If people are not believers in God, or interested in religion, why invade the religious section of the forum and God-centered discussions, just to say you do not believe in a god ? Using your post as an example, Beth, but it is not just you, and it totally puzzles me why people want to invariably do this ? I don’t care for sports, but I never go into the sports section of the forum just to announce that I don’t like sports. We have a whole section on science where evolution believing people can start all of the non-religious threads you want to , and discuss your theories of evolution.
Oh, I beg your pardon. I thought that as long as we followed forum rules we were allowed to post and express our opinions. Feel free to delete my incongruous post.
You are absolutely welcome in any of the discussions, and I didn’t mean to say that you were not welcome to come and discuss any kind of topic; so I apologize to you, @Beth Gallagher . What I just can’t understand is people (and it is not usually you) that get into a religious thread just to say that they do not believe in God or religion, and not to actually discuss the topic. It just does not make any sense to me, for people to say (over and over in multiple threads) that they think the Bible is nonsense and they don’t believe in God, and then not go into reasons why they think that (which would be discussion). You are always great for expressing opinions, and I very much enjoy reading your posts, so please forgive my frustration, and keep writing in any threads you want to. Also.....as Ken has said, posts are not deleted just because we happen to disagree. When I am writing here, it is the same as if anyone is saying it, and it is just my own little opinion. Only posts that are deemed detrimental to the forum as a whole are ever deleted, or if they are severely off-topic and disrupt the thread. I am just grumbling, and I apologize.
No apology necessary, @Yvonne Smith. I will be the first to admit that I don't always notice which section of the forum I am in... I just post away like a ditz. Sorry to have derailed the thread.