When I read Isaiah 40:12 I see God's blueprints and discover his fingerprints all over his creation. Commentary Isaiah 40:12-17 The Message Bible(MSG) The Creator of All You Can See or Imagine 12-17 Who has scooped up the ocean in his two hands, or measured the sky between his thumb and little finger, Who has put all the earth’s dirt in one of his baskets, weighed each mountain and hill? Who could ever have told God what to do or taught him his business? What expert would he have gone to for advice, what school would he attend to learn justice? What god do you suppose might have taught him what he knows, showed him how things work? Why, the nations are but a drop in a bucket, a mere smudge on a window. Watch him sweep up the islands like so much dust off the floor! There aren't enough trees in Lebanon nor enough animals in those vast forests to furnish adequate fuel and offerings for his worship. All the nations add up to simply nothing before him— less than nothing is more like it. A minus. I like the idea that "There aren't enough trees in Lebanon nor enough animals in those vast forests to furnish adequate fuel and offerings for his worship". Our God is an awesome God!
Ever curious is child illness part of the original blueprint? Does God have his fingerprints on the suffering of innocents? Or is only good attributed? Child illness is one of the most perplexing problems facing society today. In fact, the issue is so profound that billions of dollars and countless hours have been put into developing diagnostic tools, treatment techniques, and cures for the conditions and disorders that plague the most precious among us—our children. The pediatric facilities on this list serve as examples of the most impressive strides toward solving the dilemma of child sickness. They have built award-winning, and most importantly, life-saving medical programs that have helped to heal suffering kids all over the world. https://www.healthcare-administration-degree.net/50-most-amazing-childrens-hospitals-in-the-world/ Joe do you think the blueprint because the population on earth has reached over 7 billion. Hurricanes, Tornadoes, landslides, earth quakes, spears, swords, poisons, knives, bows & arrows, guns & every other means & methods of causing death are replacing the flood in Noah’s time & Sodom and Gomorrah?
A couple of snippets from the undated article in the link in post #1. 1.Finally, in 1992, COBE satellite experiments proved that the universe really did have a one-time beginning in an incredible flash of light and energy. [4] Although some scientists called it the moment of creation, most preferred referring to it as the “big bang.” Science shoots down the bible version. 2.And for life to exist, the conditions in our solar system and planet also need to be just right. For example, we all realize that without an atmosphere of oxygen, none of us would be able to breathe. And without oxygen, water couldn’t exist. Without water there would be no rainfall for our crops. Other elements such as hydrogen, nitrogen, sodium, carbon, calcium, and phosphorus are also essential for life NASA astronauts successfully sequenced the DNA of microbes found aboard the International Space Station, marking the first time unknown organisms were sequenced and identified entirely in space. The astronauts found the mystery microbes were two commonly associated with the human microbiome. More recent science January 02, 2018 Previously, microbes had to be sent to Earth for analysis, and this new sequencing marks an important step in diagnosing astronaut illnesses and, someday, identifying any DNA-based life found on other planets, NASA officials said in a statement. Researchers back on Earth have now verified the microbe identifications are correct, marking the experiment a success. As a part of the Genes in Space-3 mission, astronauts on the space station last year touched a petri plate to surfaces on the space station and grew the bacteria found there into colonies, which NASA astronaut Peggy Whitson used to amplify and then sequence their DNA. In July 2016, NASA astronaut Kate Rubins became the first to sequence DNA in space, but this latest experiment was both the first time cells were transferred for analysis and the first time unknown organisms were identified in space. (Rubins used mouse DNA sent from Earth.) [In Photos: Record-Breaking NASA Astronaut Peggy Whitson] https://www.space.com/39254-astronauts-sequence-microbes-dna-in-space.html Seems the conditions are right. I'll say it again if people have faith that there is a supernatural being 13 & 1/2 billion years old waiting for us to die good for them.
@Bob Kirk "I'll say it again if people have faith that there is a supernatural being 13 & 1/2 billion years old waiting for us to die good for them." Good for the folks having faith, or good for the "being" existing that long? Frank
Good for them. It takes a lot of faith to believe a being, supernatural or or just your common everyday humongous giant large enough to hold an ocean in the palm of his or her hand can live that long. But obviously there are. Things like creating the universe with earth as it's crowning achievement takes an all knowing being. Or a least one that should be able to find Adam & Eve in that garden or Adam & Eve didn't learn much from the tree of knowledge. since according to Genesis 3:8 they hid from that giant.
What Science Is Really Teaching Us Article by John Bloom Professor, Biola University Let the Data Speak for Itself "What science is really teaching us is that God’s glory is clearly visible. But sadly, many people would rather not see it and embrace other explanations. But this was also true in Paul’s day. After explaining that God’s power and divine nature are clearly seen in creation (Romans 1:20), Paul says, "For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. "(Romans 1:21–23) “From the telescope to the microscope, God’s creation is declaring his glory.” "Most do not bow down to these kinds of idols anymore, but many do bow to naturalism. And the scales of naturalism over our eyes can be thick, obscuring even the view of some confessing Christians. I must admit that it has fouled my vision of science and the world sometimes, but when I realize that the problem is with the naturalistic straitjacket that is keeping me from interpreting the data in a better way, science gets exciting because it offers a clear signpost to God." "Sadly, what science is also teaching us is how strongly secular cultural influences and peer pressure can blind us today to God’s glorious handiwork. But if we let the data speak for itself, science will reveal God’s eternal power and divine nature, as the Scriptures repeatedly say!"
I don't have time to be active here daily, but here's a few catch up comments. Yvonne, thank you so much for your kind words and support. I'm used to addressing atheists with opposing views, so hearing such praise is rare and appreciated. Frank, you make a fair point on my conclusion that I would like to clarify. Perhaps &most& was not the best word choice. I understand that the country's ~20% non-professing Christians would not attribute any potential creator to the God of the Bible, and that does pose a significant number - about 24 million adults actually. What I meant was that most Christians believing in a divine creator or god would consider that being to be the God of the Bible. (This shouldn't be confused with the growing number of Christians that acknowledge belief in the God of the Bible, but don't believe all of the attributes ascribed to God in the Bible - another issue for discussion later.) I hope this moves us one notch away from disagreement. Your second point on pre-judging isn't clear to me, but I can guess what the offending statement is. I do often draw conclusions and make strong statements on right and wrong beliefs, particularly when defending the Christian faith over others. I don't expect anyone with strong, differing religious convictions to agree with me. But I do hope to influence those who aren't grounded firmly in their beliefs, or to strengthen the faith of Christians who have little knowledge of apologetics - a blind faith one might say. I enjoy sharing the evidence that supports Christianity as the only one, true world religion, but I also understand that such a view is objectionable to many. So, I just try to be as nice about it as possible, recognizing that we can disagree on such things without getting upset over it. Joy, my favorite name, due to a Thai girlfriend I had for 6 years. Thanks for the welcome and sorry to hear you had a disappointing dose of religion in your younger years. Many do, usually chased away by a cult religion or otherwise bad church with false doctrines and lying leaders. The Seventh Day Adventists lead the way on this, growing faster than any other religion with their aggressive apostatizing, while also losing a high number of converts each year. The sad result is that such people leaving the faith are damaged for life, rarely accepting any religion again. I had to look up the Science of Mind, but some quick research identifies it as one of the many spiritual philosophies that exist today. I trust we'd both agree that it's quite a deviant from Christianity or other major world religions. You have however, replaced one religion for another. This thread is not the place to dissect this, and I have yet to find your other thread to read. But, I would like to give you one thought to ponder. Are you trusting your (potential) eternal soul to the guidance of a mere mortal man with no known supernatural powers or knowledge? If so, what evidence have you affirmed in order to judge his spiritual teachings as truth over hundreds of others? On the other hand, Christians trust their eternal soul, not to a mere man, but to the (alleged) supernatural god, creator, and ruler of the universe. Questioning the validity of the Christian foundation is understandable, but there's significant evidence to support the existence of God and the Bible's authority. I would suggest that if there's any chance whatsoever of human beings having an immortal soul (and there is, based upon the reports of thousands of near death experiences), that the fate of that soul should be our most critical concern in life - after all, a 100 years here is trivial compared to eternity. Thus, it would seem most logical and prudent to determine which religion in this world represents the truth - because one of them may very well determine your destiny after our short time here. Bob, you ask too many questions for one thread, but here's a response to two of your points. Though my own mind can't comprehend the vastness of the universe and what lies beyond it, I accept the biblical and scientific evidence for its existence and physical parameters. A simple analogy would be to imagine yourself as a supernatural, all powerful creator of a box. In that box you determine what exists there - in this case, time, space, and matter. You also determine how these parameters will interact or behave with each other - by establishing scientific laws of order. Now, you've created a defined space of specified parameters, and you can enter and exit that space at will because you're not limited by the laws you established. It should seem reasonable in this context to accept the notion that any god capable of creating this universe would have to be &outside and beyond& the physical parameters of this universe. To comprehend the area or environment beyond our universe, including the location of one or more heavens, is beyond our present understanding - and fortunately, not important. You can ponder it if you want, but don't let it trouble you for any doctrinal beliefs. Your second discourse poses a mix of irrelevant or unsubstantiated statements. First, the viability of life to survive does not equate to the ability of life to arise from non-life, nor does it suggest a process of life kinds evolving into other life kinds. Second, while there is evidence of life interacting with its environment resulting in micro-evolutionary change, there is little to no evidence that life has undergone dramatic changes resulting in macro-evolution. In other words, we never see plant or animal kinds evolving into other types of plants or animals. And despite the school text books, media, and misguided masses touting the opposite, the complete lack of transitional species in the geological fossil record confirms this. By Charles Darwin's own admission, this alone should now completely negate his theory of evolution. Your additional discourses and conclusions are interesting and important points, but too much for me to address here in one post.
Joe I respect your faith that there is a supernatural being that along with the rest of those [Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness, Genesis 1:27] with that being at least 13 1/2 billion years ago created the universe we live in. Your post #21 I read but couldn't find data. Or at least what the definition of data is. But for this thread Unlike the 7 day event in the bible, This reference to the beginning of our universe, has data/facts. COBE's measurements provided two key pieces of evidence that supported the Big Bang theory of the universe: that the CMB has a near-perfect black-body spectrum, and that it has very faint anisotropies. Two of COBE's principal investigators, George Smoot and John Mather, received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2006 for their work on the project. According to the Nobel Prize committee, "the COBE-project can also be regarded as the starting point for cosmology as a precision science". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Background_Explorer Latest COBE Data Sets Ready Volume 10, Numbers 3 & 4, December 1994 https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/nssdc_news/december94/02_d_leisawitz_1294.html For those that use the bible as a reference here are a few references that don't strike me as there being a kind & merciful creator. Hosea 9:14 Hosea 13:16 Numbers 31:15-18 Numbers 5:11-21 2 Kings 15:16 1 Samuel 15:3 Psalm 137:8-9
To many questions? I didn't know questioning wasn't what this forum was for. I'll post this then call it quits so I don't offend those that don't question. Questioning how the universe was formed, science provides an answer that contradicts the bible. Questioning made in his image or likeness gets a story about Adam & Eve. Science shows cell growth & DNA taken from space as in not of this earth. Never mind the skeleton remains of humans 400,000 years before the AdAm & Eve story. Or the various stages earth went thru in those 13 1/2 billion years. Questioning the ability to survive 13 1/2 billion years. No problem, just make the "creator" a supernatural being. Not only is the "creator" a supernatural being but there are other supernatural good angels & the one that turned bad Satan. Not popular. The bible tells stories of God's hate of women & children. Not questioned just accepted as God's plan maybe? A couple of examples Samuel 15:2–3 "Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel din opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ” Numbers 31:17 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him." After his "son" born from a human, not made in his image died, that seems to end the supernaturals wrath/anger/vengence. The wrath & hatred seemed to have stopped. Then there is the immaculate conception. Mary a woman without sin having a child that isn't her husbands? Mary must have sinned otherwise why does the bible state this? Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. A lot of really nice stories to spark the imgination, but I just can't imagine a supernatural being plus the good angels & Satan having lived 13 1/2 billion years and if I understand the belief, into infinity. But just in case there is always Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. No need to worry about what kind of life was led.
Thank you Joe for the kind welcome. There's nothing wrong with posing questions here Bob. But when you posit a dozen challenges in one thread that each require a lengthy answer, it's unreasonable to expect a fair response to each of those challenges. I wonder if you really want answers and are open to them, or if you mostly just want to justify your own unbeliefs? If a person is content with their own naturalistic world view, no amount of evidence is likely to change that view. Thus, it does no good to detail and debate the evidence. But, since I don't know yet the conviction of your world views, let me just briefly address your final concerns. To save time and space, I'll not be able to substantiate my views. That is something though that could be better done one subject at a time with future threads - although I don't assume to be an expert in these matters. In questioning how the universe was formed, you say that science provides an answer that contradicts the Bible. Actually, cosmology provides a lot of evidence that creationists and evolutionists both get to examine. The evolutionist however rules out supernatural intervention as any possible option, regardless of the evidence. This is an illogical premise and contrary to many of the early founders of each science discipline who believed that science was the path to discovering God, not a path exempt from God. On the other hand, the creationist examines the evidence based upon the known laws of science, recognizing that each process may be directed by natural, materialistic means or by some other supernatural means. In the case of the universe's beginning, the evolutionists have no scientific evidence to support their view of a big bang beginning - in other words they can't reasonably explain how you get something from nothing. That opposes the universe's laws of physics, specifically the First Law of Thermodynamics. In this case, the scientific evidence best supports the creation model - that a supernatural force outside of the universe and its governing laws was required in order to create the universe. In questioning the legitimacy of God making Adam and Eve in his image, you say that is inconsistent with DNA space findings and the existence of human skeleton remains from 400,000 years ago. I can't comment on the DNA reference due to lack of information, and the aging issue is one that overlaps many science disciplines, including paleontology, archaeology, geology, climatology, chemistry, and probably more. However, as a brief response, I'll say that all of the evolutionary dating methods make critical assumptions that hugely affect the outcome. Many of these assumptions in radiometric and carbon dating have been proven to be consistently unreliable, and some of them completely false. For dating pre-pottery bones, evolutionary uniformitarian principles are assumed using circular reasoning - in other words, rock layers are dated by their contained fossils, and the contained fossils are dated by the rock layers they're found in. The existence of humans long before Adam and Eve is just part of the young earth / old earth debate. In truth, there is a lot of evidence supporting both sides (unlike evolution itself). I would expect a strong evolutionist to overlook the dating method problems, but anyone with an open mind who examines the evidence should be skeptical that we have human remains from hundreds of thousands of years ago - or dinosaur bones from millions of years ago. There is abundant "scientific" evidence that the universe, earth, and all life is in fact only thousands of years old - quite recent as the Bible details. Each of these is a topic unto its own. In questioning God's ability to survive 13.5 billion years or to wait that long for humans to appear, you raise an illogical concern. First of all, the Bible clearly establishes a ~6000 year creation time line for the entire universe, world, and life as we know it AND there is substantial scientific and historical evidence to support this view. So, 13.5 billion years should not be an assumed fact, but rather an ever changing theory, which it is. Second, the Bible describes God as eternal, which is logical. In order for any supernatural being to create time, space, and matter, which secular scientists agree are physical properties within our universe, that being would have to be timeless himself. The concept of eternity is too big for most of us to comprehend - as is the power and nature of God. But logically, if there's enough evidence that there is a creator of the universe, which I believe there is, such an eternal, powerful being would not be hindered by the physical property of time - which he created - anymore than he would be hindered by gravity and other laws of the universe that he established. In referencing God's hatred for women and children because of numerous Old Testament stories of death being inflicted upon entire groups of people, you raise a concern shared by many. How about adding the millions of lives, including innocent babies, lost to a global flood to really exemplify the charge? I've heard more than one Atheist say that, even if there is a God, they want no part of such an arrogant, demanding, hateful murderer. I understand that view, but there are books, articles, and videos detailing palatable answers to these charges. Briefly, understand that God, who created the world for his own glory, gets to make the rules, and those rules demand righteousness and faithfulness to him. When his creation rebels against him, his righteous nature demands justice. That justice has historically been satisfied by repentance and sacramental sacrifice. In many cases though, we read in the Old Testament that people refuse to acknowledge God and to justify themselves before him for their sins. In such cases, God has sometimes used the Israelites to annihilate the people and in other times used acts of nature. Now you may fairly argue whether death is warranted for disobedience (and I question that too), but that is the result of sound minded people having free will and choosing to defy their creator. Like it or not, we're here for the creator's purpose, and if we rebel against him, there's a price to pay. As for the innocent babies and children that die under God's watch or control, their fate is not a bad one at all if you understand that they just get to move on to the permanent, better afterlife a little sooner. Our short 100 years here in a messed up world pales in comparison to the eternal glory in paradise that awaits the faithful ones. In reference to God's wrath, anger, and vengeance ending upon the death of Jesus, your conclusion isn't necessarily right. Just because the New Testament writers focused on the life of Christ and development of his church doesn't mean that God hasn't still been active in the world with judgments. In fact, just as our founding fathers and Christians believed that God helped to establish, protect, and bless America, many would also say that he's likely had a hand at bringing the downfall of other nations - and possibly caused some of the world's natural disasters and calamities. We can't know for sure, but there's no reason to think that God changed his character after 4000 years of human history. One can't draw that conclusion based on an argument of silence from the Bible. In questioning the immaculate conception of Mary, it is a good point so long as you're not attributing her sin to an adulterous affair - realizing of course that scriptures specify her being conceived by the Holy Spirit. Finally though, we can agree on one point and you've done well to understand the concept better than most Catholics. The doctrine of Mary being sinless is unbiblical and just one of the church's unique doctrines that is problematic. Don't let it confuse you on Christian theology. Despite what the Catholic Church and multiple cult religions teach, correct Christian doctrine is derived from the appropriate Holy Bible - not by man-made traditions, post apostolic revelations, or distorted scriptures. In reference to Ecclesiastes 12:7, your conclusion doesn't seem to match any of the various commentaries I've just read. I think King Solomon's point is that our earthly bodies are temporary and the many worldly things we pursue in life are unimportant. In the end, we'll face God all right. But don't assume your life's actions won't matter at the time of judgment. As Jesus said, knowing and loving the Lord is the most important thing in life, and our actions tend to be a reflection of how genuine that love is. While it is assured that genuine faith in Christ will get a sinful man into heaven, there is scriptural reason to expect that not everyone there will enjoy the same level of position. In other words, one does build up rewards in heaven based upon the actions of their life. Now see Bob, here's another post too long that others won't want to read. But if you're satisfied now with just 1 of the 7 issues addressed, my time will have been worthwhile.
Another one of those incredible and exceptional posts, @Joseph Carl ! Much of what you are stating happens to be how I personally believe, based on the things that I have read. However, I am (now) what is known as a “fringe Christian” because I have abandoned some of the mainstream Christian beliefs, and look at science and history to explain some of the things that my early church Biblical training did not explain. That we have a creator for this earth, I am positive of, and that he also cared about us enough to plan and create such an amazing world is another factor that I believe. As you have mentioned, many of the things that atheists find wrong (or impossible) with the Bible view, do make complete sense when you read and study some of the historical data. Mostly, I post about my religious thoughts in the conspiracy section (because that is kind of the “catch-all” area for anything that is not a mainstream belief). One of the books that I think does a great job of helping to explain things is “Babylon Rising” by Rob Skiba.
Well, @Joseph Carl it appears we have another member who has some training in religion and theology. Welcome to the forum. You will be a significant addition to some discussions. Just one thing to add to your comments above, Mary in the Catholic tradition is an ecclesiastical figure, not a theological one. Many Catholics don't seem to understand this, but it was confirmed by Vatican II. She is regarded as the highest of the "saints" and the term is hyperdulia. I, too, developed much of my thinking in debates with atheists, agnostics, and confused people over the years and am not confined to the Christian, Muslim, or Jewish concept of God or religion.
Joseph Carl I appreciate the time you spent responding to my questions. The strong belief you have and the obvious amount of your life spent interpreting what is written in the bible says a lot about the good you want to impart. As a child attending Sunday school & in my teen years church. It wasn't until in my late 30's I began questioning bible stories. The often used explanation of "free will" to explain mankind's evil/sinful, actions doesn't explain why after saving Noah & his family that free will to went back to the way it was before wiping out the rest of humanity. Although making man in their image, after our likeness might explain why murdering an entire population and other horrible evil/sinful acts began again & continue now. Why a supernatural being would want humanity to behave in evil/sinful ways if 1 John 1:5 is to be believed makes no sense to me. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. James 3:7 All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and sea creatures are being tamed and have been tamed by mankind. I do not have that same belief as I'm sure you already have recognized. My belief comes from seeing skeletal remains of mankind & animals &science showing the various stages of earths evolution. For me Bible references like those especially Genesis 1:26 are nice stories but don't reflect what we can see in skeletal remains of man, animals like T rex or fish like. a megladon. World's Largest Shark Jaw. Containing 182 fossil teeth, including four of the largest teeth ever discovered. Each of the four largest teeth measures over 7 inches, with the largest tooth measuring 7 5/8 inches. It is believed that in life, this shark would have measured over 75 feet in length. I wasn't going to post again in this thread but because you took the time to offer explanations for the basis of your belief, I thought it appropriate to offer a few reasons why I no longer have that same belief. And this will be my last post in this thread.
I am also a “young earth” believer, and I agree with what @Joseph Carl said about the discrepancy of dating fossils. Like he mentioned, they date fossils from the rocks they find them embedded in, and then date the rocks by the fossils they find. There is actually a lot of good evidence for the young earth, and when you put everything together and look at it from a different viewpoint, it DOES make sense. Like you, @Bob Kirk , I didn’t question anything I was taught in church for many years, and even then, I just assumed that the confusion was my lack of understanding the Bible, or even worse, that I was not “holy enough” for God to let me understand his written word. Now, I am old, and before I die, I want to understand the truth (whatever it might be) or at least come as close to that goal as possible, so I try to keep my mind open to everything, and at least studying and checking things out. This is a rather long video (and probably one I posted somewhere else in the forum at some point in time), but it is seriously interesting information, and worth the time it takes to listen and watch. Just make a cup of coffee, relax, and enjoy........