I am not Catholic but have always genuflected when and where appropriate to appease Catholic family, friends and employer. I have not and do not Cross myself. There is considerable ritual in the Catholic Church and I have always wondered how and who started it. Rituals at Mass, funerals,weddings etc. It's interesting to see how Episcopalians have modified all the Catholic Rituals. Actually, though I think it's all Unnecessary, I always thought of it as Pretty Cool.
I suppose it depends on which particular denomination being referred to, but at the end of the day, most are man made and have relatively nothing to do with a person's relationship with God. Just to go through the motions because it's part of a person's culture or habits only serves to make them happy. I guess it's all good.
Catholics have been genuflecting, making the sign of the cross, Hailing Mary etc.for ages. How did it all start? Who started the Rosary ritual?
I'm not Catholic. I have no idea why they pray to or hail Mary. There really aren't any biblical scriptures to indicate one should do that, nor are there scriptures about praying to saints. However, I DO try not to judge the way another religions chooses to express themselves. Through the years, I've met quite a few Catholics who were wonderful people and very sincere and devoted to their beliefs. Some of the things the Catholic church does, certainly comes from the way it is done in an orthodox Jewish synagogue. Perhaps the early Christians, many who came from the Jewish faith (like the apostles), may have incorporated some rituals into their 'new' faith. The robes, the incense, hats....there are some things which seem to correlate. Different people have different ways of expressing how they feel. I'm sure God doesn't care, but I think a person should take the time to check the Bible as to what is actually required and what is only ritual. If someone doesn't do that, then they can think their ritual takes the place of the relationship......and it simply does not.
Lon, the Roman Catholic Church has developed its unbiblical rituals, rules and traditions with the passage of time and successive Popes. Although each doctrine has different reasoning that can't be detailed easily here, there is no doubt that the church has pursued a steady course of maintaining power and influence in the world, which is logical, even if wrong. Some of their developed doctrines have supported this goal - like holding the Pope as God's one and only true representative on earth, establishing the sacraments and dependency on the church for salvation, and instituting Latin teachings and prohibition of English Bibles for hundreds of years. The slow, steady deification of Mary is another significant doctrine that is less logical from a church growth/stability perspective, as are many of the minor, unnecessary rituals. Some may be harmless, and the leity seem to like a certain amount of show and ritual. But, many have a significant historical foundation of purpose. Although I've collected a library of specific articles covering these objectionable teachings, following is an interesting time history on some of the church's man-made traditions, compiled by Donna Morley, Ph.D. 300AD ........ Making the sign of the Cross 310 ........ Praying for the dead 320 ........ Use of wax candles in the church 375 ........ Worship of angels 375 ........ The veneration of saints and use of images commanded 385 ........ Prohibition of clerical marriage 394 ........ The inception of the Mass 431 ........ The exaltation of Mary (ordered by the Council of Ephesus) 431 ........ Apostle Peter lives and ministers up to the present day, and forever, in his successors. 500 ........ Priests began to dress differently from laymen 526 ........ The conception of the sacrament Extreme Unction 553 ........ Mary is given the title “perpetual virgin” 590 ........ Title of pope is originated. The first man-made pope was Gregory I. 593 ........ The doctrine of Purgatory enters the church 600 ........ Latin language is ordered to be used in the mass 607 ........ Prayers begin to be directed to Mary, dead saints, and angels 607 ........ Title of Universal Bishop 709 ........ Kissing the pope’s foot (began with Pope Constantine) 786 ........ Veneration of the cross, images, and relics 850 ........ Holy water invented (water + salt + priests’ blessing) 890 ........ Worship of St. Joseph 995 ........ Canonization of dead saints 998 ........ Fasting during Lent 1079 ..... Celibacy of the priesthood (decreed by Pope Gregory VII) 11th ct .. Attendance of the Mass made obligatory 1090 ..... The Rosary–praying with beads 1184 ..... The Inquisition (enacted by the Council of Verona) 1215 ..... Transubstantiation (decreed by Pope Innocent III) 1215 ..... Confessing sins to priest, instead of to God 1215 ..... Yearly confession prescribed (Fourth Lateran Council) 1220 ..... Adoration of the wafer (Host/Eucharist) 1229 ..... Bible forbidden to laymen, placed on Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Valencia 1274 ..... The doctrines of Seven Sacraments, as a way to assist in one’s salvation, affirmed. 1414 ..... Cup forbidden to the people at communion (only to be given wafer) 1439 ..... Purgatory becomes dogma by the Council of Florence 15th ct .. Pope posseses the power of jurisdiction over the souls in Purgatory and can grant absolution 1545 ..... Tradition declared to have equal authority with the Bible 1546 ..... Apocrypha added to the Bible 1589 ..... Completion of “Hail Mary” (Ave Maria, approved by Sixtus V) 1854 ..... Immaculate Conception of Mary, proclaimed by Pius IX 1870 ..... Vatican Council’s proclamation of pope infallibility 1908 ..... Pope Pius X decreed that all marriages are null and void if not performed by a priest. 1928 ..... Pope Pius XI proclaims all Catholics must atone for the sins of others. 1950 ..... Assumption of Mary (bodily ascension into heaven) 1965 ..... Mary becomes “Mother of the Church” Bess, I agree with much of what you've said here, seeing again that your comments often reflect a person who is very loving, accepting, and non-judgmental. And while this may be the attitude of Jesus that I need to strive for myself, I don't think it exempts us from our obligation to witness to the world the true gospel message. To do this, it's helpful to understand why Christianity is the one true religion over the other world's many spiritual belief systems. That's the purpose of apologetics, which every Christian needs today for effective witnessing, but doing that requires a recognition of religious beliefs and practices that are right versus the many that are wrong. Thus, everything around us concerning religious beliefs, practices and moral values is relevant to the active Christian, and we need to teach and encourage the right ones over the wrong ones. In the case of Catholicism, their church traditions include a mix of problematic rituals, unsubstantiated church authority claims, and significant un-biblical doctrines. To name just four, they override the Bible's authority with the flawed human teachings of church tradition, they effect a salvation system through works, their mass service rejects the one time sacrificial work of Christ on the cross, and they promote idolatry through the worship of Mary and the saints. These beliefs and practices are deplorable to the Christian faith and Bible's teachings - enough so to argue whether Catholicism should even be considered a Christian religion. Like the LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other cult religions presenting themselves as true Christian religions - all they believe and do "is not good." I think Christians, with love and respect, should denounce heresy and actively encourage other misguided individuals to true Christian beliefs and values.
Jesus himself was born a Jew and worshiped in synagogues for a good part of his life. Actually, there really was no ritual he followed after John The Baptist baptized him. He simply preached and his apostles did likewise. The Last Supper was more or less the beginning of the ritual of Communion practiced in most Christian faiths. Each faith was established by one or more contributors and subsequent additions to rituals added. St. Thomas Aquinas actually laid out what the Catholic Church essentially was for centuries. Each Pope seems to have his own idea as to how the Catholic Church should operate. Pope Francis recently announced he'd like to add ecological sin to the Catechism. I disagree, but who am I since I already view most religions as big business these days? I have my own spiritual connection with God and am satisfied with that. However, I think everyone is entitled to his or her own faith and be respected for same. There really isn't any cause for arguing for or against religion as it it a personal thing.
I really LOVE what @Bess Barber wrote, that , regardless of what church or religious belief a person has, NO rituals can take the place of our relationship with our God. Every church seems to have developed its own ideas about what things are necessary for the believer to do, and what they should not do, and these things vary from church to church, and even from time to time in the same church. In my opinion, doing , or not doing any of the church-ordained rituals and requirements (beyond what the Bible itself teaches us) , are not that important to God. The Bible says that if we do something, believing that we are committing a sin, then it is basically a sin, because it shows that we have a heart that does not love God; but that does not necessarily make that action a sin, in and of itself. An example might be eating meat. Some religions teach that a person should be a vegetarian, and if you eat meat then it is a sin. Other churches are fine with a person eating meat. So, it is not the act of eating the meat that is questionable here, but that a person is deliberately not following something that they believe God wants them to do. The Bible says that God looks at a man’s heart; and I truly believe that people who have a relationship with God, regardless of what church they go to, are loved by God.
I agree. As I've said before on another thread, since God gave mankind the right to choose, then the least I can do is respect whatever choice a person makes.
With that premise then, I conclude that you respect the followers of Islam who appropriately interpret the Quran and act upon their beliefs by murdering non-Muslims? After all, they're only acting upon their own religious beliefs, and you wouldn't want to call them wrong. With that premise then, I conclude that you respect the Atheist leaders of multiple countries in the world today that are imprisoning, torturing, and killing Christians? After all, they're only acting upon their own religious beliefs, and you wouldn't want to call them wrong. With that premise then, I conclude that you have no concern for the innocent, defenseless babies that are being killed each day by those who hold no religious moral values? After all, they're only acting upon their own beliefs, and you wouldn't want to call them wrong. With that premise then, I conclude that you disagree with our nation's founding fathers who clearly believed and publicly stated that the prosperity and security of our Republic depends primarily upon the principles of Christianity? With that premise then, I conclude that your view of Jesus, the commisioned apostles, and millions of Christian teachers and preachers throughout history have been wrong to not accept others' false religious beliefs? With that premise then, I conclude that your definition of love means not caring whether others know or follow true or false beliefs? And with that premise, based upon Lois's statement, I conclude you feel that the eternal souls, purpose in life, or religious moral values of everyone else in this world are unimportant? Might I suggest that religious beliefs, their moral (or immoral) values, and people's related actions in accordance with those beliefs are in fact what matter most in this world. To quietly accept or respect wrong beliefs or practices is to not care about society or its individuals. And while that may keep one's life less confrontational, easy, and peaceful, it's certainly not a demonstration of love. And of course, those of us who are Christians certainly understand our expected mission in life to witness the truth to others. In summary, while we must strive to be respectful to all individuals, I don't think that equates to accepting, condoning or ignoring all beliefs, given the world's abundance of evil, misguided people, and false teachings. I think seeking, sharing, and pursuing truth in all matters, especially religion, is the sign of caring, and caring is loving.
Well, from where I'm sitting, those "evil, misguided people and false teachings" could equally apply to you. Who is to know what are the real truths, and will anyone ever know? Why can't people accept their own beliefs without trying to denigrate the beliefs of others? Most of this confirms that my agnostic lack of beliefs isn't such a bad deal.
I think that fanaticism by any religious group is what stops a lot of people from even looking into whether there might be a God of this earth, and if there is, what it represents for us as a human being, @Beth Gallagher . Not all Muslims go around killing and beheading people, not all atheists kill and imprison Christians, and to make a blanket statement about everyone of any faith is not right, and not even what we are taught to do as a Christian believer in God. How can someone claim to be a follower of a Loving God, and then hate everyone who believes differently than they do ? The inhumane treatment and murdering of ANY human being is what is the problem, and it applies to any person that does this, not to any religion as a whole. We have friends who are Islamic, and they are as peace-loving and caring about their fellow humans as anyone that I know.
One does not have to believe in or on another’s way of life to show the love and unity that those following Christ should be showing. May I suggest @Joseph Carl that you also show that love. It is not your job to conclude or state someone else’s premise for certainly, you know not the heart nor mind of another. It would seem that Bess is showing much more love, patience, sobriety and tolerance than you my scholarly friend and it would do you well to pray about your lack of tolerance for others especially, on a multi-platformed and multi-tiered forum such as this. I would be very careful NOT to smite the face of a child of God for surely, that is something you might have to beg forgiveness for. Whether someone enjoys the rituals involved in one’s belief system is not my concern. It is the same as those who would pray with their eyes open or with their hands clasped or eyes shut or laying prostrate on the floor. It makes absolutely no difference when the focus of all of it is the worshipping of our Lord. In the end, it is God who knows the heart and it is God who will judge the living and the dead and no mortal amount of education nor logic will be able to overcome that judgement. I would that all mankind know the love of God, the love that brought us the savior Jesus Christ but with that want it is established that we should be tolerant of all faiths and beliefs so that they, whoever they are and whatever rituals they should so desire would see what God wishes them to see in us.
My statement in no way invalidates the importance of immortal souls on this earth or beyond as Joseph Carl would have you believe. Everyone is an individual with free will and given the ability to believe or not believe what he or she chooses. How one applies the end result is what matters. Ergo, not all beliefs are good or bad in all persons' minds. Please try to keep these priorities straight when you presume to state what I meant.
I think the best salvation message is trying to be someone other people may want to spend eternity with.