Where Did Your Faith, If You Have Faith, Begin?

I can't relate nor understand practically anything that I have read in the bible but sometimes I get the message from a sermon. Billy Graham was good at this.

 

I've stated before that I'm a card carrying atheist, but in my study and teaching of medieval literature and languages, I've spent considerable time with the Bible and with the evolution of Christianity in Europe. I've enjoyed reading the Bible a number of times.

I'd like to make a suggestion to people who would like to look a bit at the evolution in the European history of Christianity. The first is the History of the Franks by Gregory of Tours (6th century) and the other is the History of the Danes by Saxo Grammaticus. Both of the translations below are from early in the last century. There are newer ones that are available in most libraries. Saxo's history has the origin of Shakespeare's Hamlet.


https://www.ryansetliff.online/medieval/Gregory-of-Tours-History-of-the-Franks.pdf


https://www.google.com/books/editio...thor:"Saxo+(Grammaticus)"&printsec=frontcover

If you have the time and patience to read these, or parts of them, I'd be thrilled to exchange notes.

 

With your reading and study I am sure you have many reasons for your Atheism. What would you say is your main reason. I am not well read in either history or the Bible. I enjoy and read history but not on a academic level but have considered my self an atheist most of my life.

 

I've always thought the Bible was a basic guide for doing the right thing.

Other than that, it's a pretty boring read.

I have a copy I refer to occasionaly to see if the Bible is correct in duplicating scenes from Hollywood religious films.

H.P.

 

Ouch! This is a hard one. My paternal grandfather was a Mormon polygamist who was usually broke. My grandmother was the fourth of his wives. He put her and her 6 sons, ranging from toddlers to teens on the train to a mining town in Sothern Idaho and dumped them. Some of the sons stayed with the church. My father didn't. My twin cousin did, I didn't. (Our mothers were sisters, fathers brothers, and we were born on the same day. We were very close our whole lives, He passed two years ago.)
But there's more. When studying medieval history, it became clear to me that (for example) Charlemagne and his recent ancestors used Christianity to conquer the rest of Europe. Even after the Franks had been Christianized, they kept killing each other. How many wars have we had Christian against Christian? There's more, but if you've read this far you're likely....

 

Interesting-- My paternal grand parents were Seventh Day Adventist Missionaries in Haiti where my father and his two brothers were born. My father never stayed in the church as an adult and only one brother remained a Seven Day Adventist. None of this had anything to do with my atheism.

 

It was a rather long process before I "came out." I remember in my undergraduate college days some friends tried to "save me." I attended a few churches and was occasionally interested. There were some other things I don't remember clearly. I recall that i recognized Billy Graham as a grifter, as son Frank is even more so. There are several others at work today.
I hasten to say that I do like the teachings of Christ, and I do read several scholars. My favorite is a Paul Tillich, who had flee to the US from Nazi Germany.

 

My departed wife and I were great examples of non-attendance in churches!

She was brought up as a staunch Roman Catholic, and attended Catholic schools where she was taught by Nuns.

We were married in a non-religious ceremony by a Layman, then throughout our 23 years of togetherness, we never once attended a church service!

Hal

 

I can relate---same for my wife & I

 

Hal, I hope you meant the opposite of what you said "... if the Bible is correct in duplicating scenes from Hollywood religious films." Whether one believes in its authority or not, the Bible obviously came long before Hollywood did. Thus, one might check to see if Hollywood's scenes represent the Bible correctly, not the other way around. And in my experience of watching every Biblical movie possible, I find Hollywood rarely sticking to the original script. Their disregard for the Bible's authority and historical accuracy is shamefully pervasive.

James, I trust you understand the difference between the actions of men and the doctrines of the Christian faith. This was relevant centuries ago when entire churches waged war and committed atrocities against unbelievers, and remains relevant today when outspoken Christians are exposed as hypocrites, frauds, or flawed representatives.

I know its normal to judge a faith by its leaders, but too many people also pass judgement on Christianity based upon every supposed Christian they see or meet that's living a sinful life. Given this standard, no truth in faith could be assessed accurately. No, the truth of Christianity is not supported by the exemplary behavior of its followers, but by the empirical evidence for God and the Bible.

Finally, I'd like to question your claimed time studying "the evolution of Christianity in Europe." Would it be more accurate to suppose that you've actually studied the evolution of church beliefs, practices and their resulting historical events? There's probably more history there that you know than me. But I'd suggest, as but one example, that the Catholic Church's developing doctrinal beliefs, practices, and historical events do not represent Christianity as established by Jesus and the Disciples' writings. Contrary to secular sources teaching or touting otherwise, the foundational doctrines of Christianity were completely and firmly established before the end of the first century - long before the Catholic, Orthodox, or various Protestant denominational churches even existed. Since that time, there has been a never ending attempt to refute, distort, or change the Gospel message and to tie all kinds of unbiblical or cult beliefs to the Christian faith. In summary, false, man-made religions or churches do evolve with time, but Christianity does not.

 

Thanks for your very good post, Joseph. I agree with it absolutely. I hope my post(s) were clear enough to state that I have nothing against the teachings of Christianity. There are a few things that I'd like to point out.

Some time ago I stumbled on the book 'Misquoting Jesus” by Bart Ehrman. The book points out that the New Testament was passed on by one scribe copying another until the printing press came along. I've read scholars who tell us that the King James Bible, while being great for it's poetic English, is not so good otherwise, since the writers didn't have access to the best versions of the Greek and Latin versions that were floating around at the time. In my own studies and teaching, the Gothic New Testament, translated in the 4th century came from a source not available to us today. In short, how many edits and mistakes found their way into the new copy from the old deteriorating one during the copying?

 

No offense intended, but it seems to me that you stumbled across a book whose author stumbled. Here's why.



I know some things about this man. Long ago when I was younger and did a lot of research, I dismissed all of his writings when I found out he “gave up” on Jesus while at Princeton working on his doctorate. In his teenage years, he said he became a Christian at a very young age. He now refers to himself as an “atheist agnostic”. This is a sad story for me.

According to Dr. Ehrman, Josephus' passage about Jesus was altered by a Christian scribe, including the reference to Jesus as the Messiah. He was talking of this passage, Antiquities, written in the early 90s C.E :

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities18:63-64).”

For myself, I choose to believe Josephus just as he wrote it. There’s no proof of what Ehrman says.

To believe or not to believe is still up to the individual. Now, here's my proposal, just ask God if Jesus was a real person, and He will answer ---- if you are sincere.

 

For me my belief in God started with my parents sending me to Catholic School. Along with all the standard elementary school courses I was taught religion by studying the Catholic catechism.
From my earliest grade I enjoyed reading / hearing the writings of the Old Testament. As a child who would not enjoy the story of creation, the Ten Commandments, Noah, Jonah and the whale and on and on.
We then moved on to the New Testament I learned about Jesus the root of Christianity and the Catholic religion, an amazing story.
for as long as I can remember I had love for science and technical mind. When it came to learning the catechism, I was a PITA, at the end of every lesson the nun would ask are there any questions, raise your hand, my hand was always up. I was the "WHY" or "WHAT IF" child. The nuns had the patience to answer my questions satisfactorily.
The more I prayed, and the more I went to church, the more I believed. There was a point in my young life where I felt I had the "calling" to be a priest.
My belief had stayed with me till today.

 

The Hollywood versions of Biblical stories are always absolutely correct!
If the Bible doesn't reflect this, then it is in error.

Harold