Thanks John. It would have to be the spray. The ceiling tiles are similar to Styrofoam with tiny holes embedded. It would be fun trying to keep the spray off of everything else in the kitchen. ( Notice use of the word "would" instead of "will." . Need excuses.)
Nancy--maybe your homeowner's insurance would pay for repairs or to replace the ceiling and repaint anything else that got smoke damage.
I won't bother the insurance company with this. They might cancel the insurance. At best it would go on my "permanent record." I'm waiting for the "big event" when the whole house burns down.
I bought this years ago just because it was pretty. But never had the patience to wait for it to stop swinging before. Things I learned this week... The front wall of the house, right where the door is hinged, leans in by 5/8" from the floor to the top of the door. Any door mounted on that wall would always swing open by itself, and worst case might touch the floor when open. Whoever installed the old door there "split the difference" (see Fig 1) and only adjusted the hinges, to try and compensate. The top hinge is set farther in on the frame; the bottom one, farther out on the casing. It still swings open if you let go of it. (obviously not to scale) Best I can tell looking at videos, the door stops, weather stripping, and threshold of the new door will all be fastened together in a unit. Moving the hinges any is not an option, because these things would not line up right. The frame is covered with aluminum cladding. Matching casings are included, with a separate piece of cladding that glues on top of the outside casing. Without going into detail, I believe just splitting the difference, like before, wouldn't look good. There would be a gap in the cladding that would show on the door side of the frame. Short of tearing everything apart and starting over, I think the only way to mount this new door so it looks good is to widen the jamb by 5/8" to extend past everything (Fig 2). Then insert 2 triangular wood strips under the casing for support, similar to THIS VIDEO. This way you would have to put your cheek against the wall and look at the doorway from the side to see any gaps or irregularities, because they would be visible only on the wall side instead of the door side. .. I've been studying all these things in detail because I know the guy didn't measure right last week. He seemed very cavalier about the whole process (more on that later). I guess he just leaves it up to the installer to "make do" as best he can with whatever he gets. I want to take new measurements to hopefully avoid that. I am probably missing something obvious. It's hard to imagine everything that could go wrong with no experience in these things, and no new door here to look at. I wish my father were still around to ask him about this stuff. Folks on carpentry forums don't like it when you join just to ask one question, so I haven't tried that. Putting a fancy door on this old house may be like putting lipstick on a pig. But it has to be special order anyway, so might as well get it up there looking as good as possible with what you have to work with, and starting with accurate measurements. (to be continued)
(front door story continued) One mystery solved. The second estimate was 24% lower because the salesman mistakenly entered the door width in the computer as 42" instead of 36". I wish he had just said he made a mistake rather than, "It's a smaller door." I mentioned before that the owner of this business and I didn't get off to a good start. He acted like he was so good at taking measurements he could really do it blindfolded without a measuring tape. Forgot his level and used mine, but only when he was about ready to leave. He didn't check if the opening was out of square (it is) or if the threshold was level (it's not). Discovering that the wall leans in 5/8" didn't seem to make any difference either. He first said the way I suggested cutting out the edge of the old casings would be easy with a SawZall. But kept hinting later on that it might be extra work. So I offered to do it for them. Looked up SawZall and that tool wouldn't work. You would need something that does a plunge cut. I've always wanted a tool that would do that anyway. Finally, he said he was going to do me a favor and not charge extra for all the extra work. At that point I asked him if he was going to install the door himself, and when he said No, I said "Good!" He grumbled to the salesman that I should wish he would be the one to install it. The salesman chimed in, Yes, Sir! Sounds like they have gotten complaints about their installers in the past. Is it because the installers are bad, or his measurements are bad? In addition, after I read the contract, two clauses bother me. (more on that later)
That's a good question. I've thought about this a lot. Early on. I don't think so. I think this is just a case of arrogance and bumbling of the (2) management guys. I don't think there is anything nefarious. When it comes to doors and windows, it all depends on the manufacturer and the installers, imo. The middle guys are just a nuisance to deal with. They are the only retailers in town for these doors. The doors look really nice and carefree. There is no company who will custom make a door in every aspect up to 1/16 th of an inch. I don't want a door whose installation will cause me more work. Work I will never get done and too small to hire someone to do. Just because the installer had to jigger things to make a more standard door fit.
This is the clause in the contract that bothers me (verbatim). It reads like a DIY worded contract to me. Based on some prior bad experience. ____________________________________________________________________ Final payment will be due on installation day. On the day of installation, if unforeseen circumstances arise, including but not limited to: mis-measured products, and/or human error, the balance of all completed work is due at that time. Remaining balance will be paid upon completion. __________________________________________________________________ This makes no sense, but it could mean if they measure wrong, that's your problem, and you may have to pay extra to fix it? There will be very little human error in measurement if I do it myself. I hate surprises, so I have come up with Plans A, B, and C. A flowchart may be required. (to be continued)
Plan B:. Right after the guys left I decided to just order the door using my own measurements, have it delivered to the house, and hire someone else to install it. Someone I could pay by the hour to do a good job. GC should know someone. HOWEVER ... Plan A:. .After thinking about it over the weekend, these installers probably have experience with this particular door mfg. That is worth a lot. They would know how to install the cladding that a general contractor might not. It could be a lot of extra work to arrange someone else to do it. I think gambling on his installers might be worth it. Plan C: . When they show up I can ask them what they plan to do, and if they start whining or complaining, I can send them home and go to Plan B. Stopping them before they mess things up, might be worth it, even if they don't give any refund for the installation. I am gun-shy about door/window installers from past experience with windows. Also roofers.
What they are saying is that if things are not right when they come to install the door or if they hit a snag, you have to pay them for the work they have done up to that point. When they later take care of whatever went wrong, you pay them the balance. Therefore, you do not want to take measurements or specifically direct them on any step. If you do, then they can argue that you made the error and that they are not accountable for it. It's tough, but you can question them as they go but you do not want to take charge or accountability. If there is no valuation for each step of the process on the contract (and there likely is not), then putting a value on what's been done so far (in the event of a problem) is gonna be subjective. Keep in mind that you are always in control of how much you decide to pay them at any point (if you decide to pay anything at all.) In that regard, I would pay everything by check (deposit, progress payments, etc) and not give them a credit card, so you are in complete control. (Absent that contract clause, I might have leaned towards putting it on plastic for the purchase protection benefit.) Have you checked these guys out? Would you feel confident that they would come back and work for the remaining balance of work if they got a significant chunk of the dollars before they were finished? From their point of view, they gotta pay up front for the materials and they gotta make payroll. But we all know how contractors can be. You [obviously] need to talk to them about it. You are paying them for a finished project, and don't want to make progress payments, nor does it make sense for their mistake to be a payment-triggering milestone...late performance is usually when payment is withheld. After all, when they take their vehicles in for repair, the shop does not call and ask them for money because the shop ordered the wrong parts and the shop's got bills to pay. They pay the shop when the job is done. One potential line might be "Contracts generally penalize the seller for performance issues, not the customer...and I've not asked for any remedy if you delay the project. I didn't think t was necessary." You don't need me to tell you to give them room to explain their position to you (it is so easy to mistrust.) You are ultimately in control of whether or not you sign the agreement, and you are in control of when (and if) payments are made. One middle position would be that if the door itself got measured correctly and it was made to the right specs and it's the door that is going to ultimately be installed, then you might offer to pay for the door at that point (if problems even arise in the first place.) But I would not pay for any labor until the job is complete...they gotta have an incentive to move forward. Anyway...food for thought.
Thank you John. Your post points out to me something that was staring me in the face and I didn't notice. For some reason I just assumed they would want the full payment before they ordered the door. Maybe they even told me that. I know for a fact, the measurements they took will not work. Just the jamb width measurement alone is too narrow. So I have to get involved. If I don't the installation will be a guaranteed mess. Your last paragraph is the solution. I will agree to pay a reasonable amount up front for the door and materials. If they don't go for that the whole deal is off, and I'll see if I can order directly from the mfg, or through some other retailer out of town and have it delivered. (Plan D) When the installers show up if I don't like what they say, I'll send them home. At that point I might pay for their time wasted getting here and talking to me. They will have earned it. This is a small company. They may not have many jobs lined up. They have good reviews, but I can't find any that I suspect haven't been edited.
That kind of raises another risk issue for you. If this business has to have payment even when they screw up (because they lack the cash flow to cover costs until they fix it), they might be perpetually on the cash bubble. It might not take much to pop that bubble, and the triggering event likely would have nothing to do with you (rent, insurance, taxes, licenses, etc.) So you would be stuck with a hole in your house and a contract with a defunct company. That payment clause also makes me think that the installers are contractors, not employees. They are the ones who have the direct experience, and might be available for direct-hire or consulting.
It just occurred to me that the contract clause we've been discussing may have been borne of this company making so many measurement errors that delayed payments were killing them. I've never seen a seller demand partial payment in the event that they screw up. Perhaps their screwing up has been such a frequent occurrence they eventually put that clause in there so they could survive. From a 10,000 foot view, this is a great example of how reading the contract (as you have done) in conjunction with other observations lends insight into the capabilities of the involved parties before you enter into a binding relationship.
I bet you are right. Too bad I don't have their number. Hiring them out from under the company would be unethical, so I wouldn't do it. But they could tell me if I have anything to worry about.
They are contractors. When the door guy does not have projects, they work for others or for themselves. The ethical concern is theirs, not yours...but as contractors there are none. If they were employees it would be a different story, and I would not consider it, either. And if the door guy was doing a proper job (and not telling you to fund his mistakes), we would not even be talking about it. Go talk to the folks at the Lowes Pros counter (or the door manufacturer) about who you might hire to do this. Perhaps the name of the door company might come up in conversation with Lowes regarding contractors who have direct experience. The primary concern to me would be insurances...both for property damage and for injury. (The door guy does have insurances, doesn't he? I know that stuff can be expensive if you're cash-strapped.)