@Kitty Carmel Perhaps "shame on you" is actually a form of "name-calling", though I've never thought of it as such before. What I'm still wondering, unless someone has updated my question about "Vegan" and "Vegetarianism", is whether each has a distinct common definition or not. Hey, you can't stay "out of this one" simply because you answered the thread! You're already "in"! Frank
I think that we have discussed the difference elsewhere, and maybe even in this thread, @Frank Sanoica ; but basically the difference between a vegetarian and a vegan is that the vegetarian will still eat eggs, cheese, and other dairy products, that do not involve the death of an animal. The premise of a vegan is that they abstain from any kind of product to eat, wear, or use in any form, if that product comes from an animal. They do not even use honey because it was made by a bee. A person who eats something like poultry or fish, is not a vegetarian. There are basically two different reason why most people decide on a vegan lifestyle, or even on a vegetarian lifestyle. Probably the main reason would be like Kitty, who has chosen to refrain from animal products because of animals being killed or harmed in the processing of any animal food product. In this case, then any foods (even junk foods) are acceptable, providing that they are not made with any animal products, and the diet is not necessarily going to be a healthy one, although it very well could be. The other reason (which is why I am choosing a plant-based diet), is because of health reasons. All animal foods are inflammatory to our body, and where there is inflammation, there is also going to be pain, such as arthritis, lupus, fibromyalgia, and just about any other kind of muscle or joint pain, as well as many illnesses. Simply speaking, I want to keep my body in as good of health as it can be for whatever time I have left in my life. If not eating animal products can help me do this, and to live a healthier and pain-free life, then it is worth it to me to at least attempt to make the change.
@Yvonne Smith Thank you,Yvonne. Frank See: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/...jQ4NTNfMQRzZWMDc2M-?qid=20081001192748AAZUQp1 "VEGAN ======================================... This is by far the strictest vegetarian sub-group or category. A vegan is a person who has chosen not to consume any animal products or byproducts. Some will even so far as not consuming honey and yeast, and others will not wear any clothing made from animal products. Veganism is a diet and lifestyle that seeks to exclude the use of animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose. Vegans endeavor not to use or consume animal products of any kind. The most common reasons for becoming a vegan are ethical commitment or moral convictions concerning animal rights, the environment, human health, and spiritual or religious concerns. Of particular concern are the practices involved in factory farming and animal testing, and the intensive use of land and other resources required for animal farming. Veganism never stops at eating habit alone, but continuous journey beyond."
@Yvonne Smith "Probably the main reason would be like Kitty, who has chosen to refrain from animal products because of animals being killed or harmed in the processing of any animal food product. " Is this not a waiving of Biblical Doctrine? A form of heresy? Frank
@Yvonne Smith "All animal foods are inflammatory to our body, and where there is inflammation, there is also going to be pain, such as arthritis, lupus, fibromyalgia, and just about any other kind of muscle or joint pain, as well as many illnesses. " Please tell an authoritative source for this statement. If there is one, I believe I can counter it with an equally-true statement regarding non-animal food sources. Thank you. Frank
As far as I know, there is nothing that would make refraining from eating animal products a heretical act. What part of the Bible were you referring to that says this ? The Old Testiment does describe which animals are considered clean to eat, and which are not; but there is nothing that requires a person to eat meat that I can think of. If I remember right, before mankind was expelled from the Garden of Eden, all they ate was plant-based foods. One of the first things that the Bible refers to is that God Himself planted a garden for mankind, so they would have fresh foods to eat.
All you have to do is search on the internet for inflammatory foods, and meat and dairy will show up on the list. There are non-meat/dairy foods which are also inflammatory, which includes most refined foods, even those made with plants originally, such as sugar or white flour. If you look for anti-inflammatory foods, then you will find a large list of fruits and vegetables, and these Whole Foods will help keep inflammation out of the body, and this is where the idea of a plant-based diet comes in at. Here is one such list; but you can find many other ones if you look online. https://theconsciouslife.com/top-10-inflammatory-foods-to-avoid.htm
@Crissy Cross How many calories in a cup of cooked beans? I suppose people have eaten or tried to eat what's available where you happen to exist. Or maybe what they can catch, trap, hook, or shoot. If only pigs are around, you eat pork. If there are deer, elk, or moose you've got a variety. If there's cattle you can have beefsteak and you're living high on the hog, so to speak,the good life. Myu grandson here in Norman does not eat meat. He's a young man, in college, a straight A student last year, healthy as a horse on alfalfa. Majoring in math and political science. His mother is Italian, his father mixed breed. He eats lots of pasta and cheese. Is particular about his vegges and how they are prepared. He fond of good wine. He's not gaunt and hollow eyed yet. He is the only vegitarian I know. Personally, I eat most anything that don't eat me first if in chew it. But then I'm a predator, a meat eater, although I'm eating less meats than I used to. Alright you've done it. You made me forget where I was going with this.
@Yvonne Smith Re: Inflammation: "The five classical signs of inflammation are heat, pain, redness, swelling, and loss of function (Latin calor, dolor, rubor, tumor, and functio laesa).[1] Inflammation is a generic response, and therefore it is considered as a mechanism of innate immunity, as compared to adaptive immunity, which is specific for each pathogen." I should like to see a reference proving animal products consumed cause "inflammation" as defined. I do not regard common foods as "pathogens". See no reason to. The term "inflammatory", as used commonly today, is derived from a hodge-podge gathering of loose information relating to "oxidants" and "antioxidants", allegedly proving that foods high in "anti-oxidants", i.e., colored vegetables, prevent "inflammation". Such generalization, in my opinion, is bullshit. Frank
I think that you are being contentious, @Frank Sanoica . You asked me a question, and I gave you an answer, and now you are saying that you think that it is all foolishness, anyway; so there is no way that i am going to give you more research about joint inflammation. If you decide that you are interested, you can do your own research, just like the rest of us do. I am not trying to convince you (or anyone else ) what they should or should not eat, I am simply trying to share what I have read that shapes MY decision on what foods are healthy for MY body. I have a lot of ebooks about foods and inflammation, and I try things out to see what works for me. Like buying a shirt, diet is not a “one size fits all”, and we each have to research and test things out to determine what makes our body the healthiest it can be. Last year, I was reading about ketogenic foods, and only ate low carb veggies, no starches, and basically meats and fats. Since I was eating a lot of salads and greens, I was doing pretty well on this food plan; but now I have been reading about plant-based diets, and am trying it out to see if i can do better this way. The common ground that I can see from any kind of healthy diet, is to eat plenty of greens and veggies, eat fresh foods, and stay away from junk foods and all processed foods. I think that if a person does that, they will become healthier, regardless of whether they do or don’t eat animal products.
I love watching people who argue about which is right about vegan or meat eaters. There is a host of web sites and medical information which will back either side so let them keep fighting. I judge my diet by success and not medical literature. These same people who write this stuff die early. The average doctor dies 20 years earlier than a drunk dumpster dinning. Successful people would be for cancer and heart conditions are the Eskimos who are carnivores. They normally die from the harsh conditions they live in. The oldest people living in the blue zones around the world normally never see processed food and live in high mineral rich areas and a reduced caloric diet. I have spent many years looking for what is the healthy diet and checking the successful people to find it. The last few years I have interview all the 100 plus year old people I can find and where I live there is quite a few. They eat everything vegetables meat diary even thing you would not considered food one thing that most do not eat is boxed food [processed] a lot even smoke but I will not do that part. I have watch as cooking oils became more popular heart disease and many other problems increased all the old people that I interviewed all used lard not Crisco for cooking. I personally have help hundreds of people here reverse arthritis, diabetes, heart conditions, stroke, acid reflux, asthma, and many other chronic diseases. Medical is a failed system why follow their advice. Follow success I do
Another Biblical note is, “why dost thou kick against the pricks?” There certainly is, and you are indeed smart enough to know, that the word, inflammatory, as referenced to the human body is about joints and organs. It really isn’t in as ambiguous as you make it out to be Frank but if you wish to live your life steeped in rationalization, then do so. We can, and often do attempt to bias the research in our favor much as people nearly always do when it comes to Biblical authority. I too eat a lot of meat due to my own goals toward muscle mass but believe me, I do suffer a lot especially when my choice of food isn’t offset by the use of anti-inflammatory agents found in veggies and some fruits like pineapple for instance. No one is saying that you or I HAVE to do what we are told is good for us because the bottom line is that there’s a thing called free will and if yours or mine doesn’t align with others, so be it. Lastly, and maybe a tad importantly, NO, abstainance from meat is not in any way, shape or form a heretical choice. Matter of absolute fact and on the opposing side of the spectrum, NO vegetable is listed in THE LAW, but several birds, fish, crustaceans and yes, meats are giant no-no’s. Although I am not necessarily in line with the total beliefs of the 7th Day Adventists, they are extremely studied up and very, very diet conscious and follow Biblical principles down to the letter which leads many of them to be vegetarians.
I guess I'm one who think the medical community is very useful. I would suggest most people who write diet and health books do it not for the information and content it contains but in the hope it will make a few bucks. To go further I suppose i believe most folks who knock the cmedical community are pretty healthy to start with or they judge everything by theexperience ethey have had with whatever.We are lways alike. We react to things differently and that includes medicine and treatments. Some may have good experiences outside the medical field but for most of us using what's available to us in the mediccal field works for most of us, if we can afford it. But then, like the aliens say, 'everyone to his own cup of tea'. Just a note of experience of a personal friend. He had Parkinson's, a rare type.He's a young man, mid fifties. Nothing dctors did for him or recommended worked. He couldn 't walk, lost his job, constantly in pain. One doctor reccoended diet, cut all hybercarbons, and I don't know the fine details but it was strictly all diet. He's now walking, has his job back, he worked a long time for Apple. He says he's doing well. In his earlier days he and my son made music together for a number of years.
Bill, I, too, think the medical community is very useful, especially when dealing with ACUTE health issues. When they work on CHRONIC health issues, however, they tend to "pooh-pooh" non-conventional ideas, especially when dealing with diet. Your friend was fortunate to have found a medical provider that took diet into account when treating his Parkinson's.
When I was diagnosed with cancer ten years or so ago, I asked my regular physician, my radiation doctor, and my urologist whether there was anything that I could do, particularly in the way of diet, to reduce my chances of getting cancer again. Each one of them said no, that it will just happen or it won't, but diet would have nothing to do with it. Both doctors who lobbied so heavily to get me on statin drugs for cholesterol said the same thing. Although I am not a doctor, I know for a fact that cholesterol has everything to do with diet, and I strongly suspect that diet plays a part in cancers as well, although it is not necessarily the only thing that plays into it. They would rather I take a statin drug for cholesterol and come back to them the next time I got cancer. So no, while I do have some respect for medical professionals in that, if I suspect I am having a heart attack, I am going to see a doctor before I start thinking about a diet, but I cannot depend on them for advice on healthy living. Doctors are better with drugs and knives. Diet, I am sure, has more to do with healthy living than drugs or surgeries, and I don't doubt that a vegetarian diet could solve a lot of problems for a lot of people. But that doesn't mean that it's right for everyone.