It is the very height of fanatical, mindless arrogance to accuse someone of not 'loving America' because their political views are different than yours. I can't help but notice that only the ultra-conservatives use this tactic. Talk about 'drinking the cool-aid'!
Semantics, Ken? Really?! Is that all you got? You're making this too easy! OBVIOUSLY, based upon the context of the 'discussion' we're having, I do not expect the other nations we oppose to love us, but when an American questions the loyalty of another American based solely on their differing visions for the country, it merely tells me that the accuser hasn't got anything with which to back up their own position. It's abundantly clear that I have kicked yet another hornet's nest of staunch conservatism here and I certainly don't anticipate winning over any of you with a reasoned argument. Therefore, you may just regard my remarks as the further exercise of that 'freedom of speech' thingie which you all claim to revere so highly when it happens to suit your purposes. I simply can't IMAGINE that ANY of you might think of ME as anything less than a full-blooded and utterly devoted American citizen just because I believe that the conservative agenda will be the ignoble downfall of our great nation, right?!?!
When someone's politics are such that they want to "fundamentally transform" the America we live in into a type of government that I don't want to live under, then yes, I do believe that someone's political views are good reason to say that they hate America. Would we set aside our political differences and put Putin in charge of our country? That's pretty much what we've done with Obama.
We're not looking to 'fundamentally transform' anything, only to prevent YOU from doing so. The argument over whether America is a Republic or a Democracy has raged down through the centuries since Ben Franklin debated with Thomas Paine about it. The fact that you would dare to question my patriotism because of clashing ideologies completely removes you from any consideration as a thinking human being and ends the conversation, as far as I am concerned. I, and all my like-minded friends, will see you at the polls.
The polls? I don't think we're going to have to concern ourselves with polls any longer. In a fundamentally transformed America, polls are just for show, much like the elections they held in the Soviet Union.
A discussion should be governed by a person's intellectual ability to diplomatically present their logical view of the topic, and not by ridiculing ANY of the people who disagree with your views. I am disappointed in you Peter. I thought you would be above name-calling.
I just have a short weigh in on the subject. We can all go back and forth and debate about what we think is wrong with the system and with whomever is in the system of our government. O'Bama this, Bush that, Hillary is whatever, and the list goes on and on. What I have never heard is, "what is right about," anyone! Think about it.......what has O'Bama and his entire administration done right? Please do not say that more people are insured now that we have O'Bama care. More people are insured out of fear! The IRS handles the new "affordable" health care and if you do not sign up for it you get fined and scrutinized by the IRS! Now, what has he done right. No comparing to any other administrations. No bringing in any bad stuff. Just simply, What Has He Done That Truely Makes Him a Great President? The present president has been in office for six years. Name 6 things he has done that has been absolutely positively right. 6 years, 6 things. Simple task. I'm willing to bet, it will be a long time before someone comes up with any good, solid, undebatable answers. But, please do feel free to try. Oh yeah. Freedom of Speech is alive and doing well. This is the United States of America and no one really cares if we call ourselves a Democracy or Republic, because frankly, only about 1 in 30 or 40 might be able to tell us what the difference really is. All that I know is we're free, and I am willing to fight to keep it that way.
Obama did one good thing. When he got the democratic nomination to run for president, he kept Hillary from possibly getting elected president. Another good thing he has done is get more conservatives elected to congress. I think that is it.
I had not intended to bother posting here again, nor will I in future, but this cheap shot from someone I have so recently thought of as a friend seems, to me, to demand a response. I have, in point of fact, NOT descended to name-calling in any way, shape or form. Rather, I have carefully, dispassionately and, I hope, respectfully presented my vehement opposition to the stock conservative attitude that is squarely behind idiotic remarks such as those made by Giuliani. I have given you fact-based arguments which are supported by most of the population of the planet and you have responded with the same old care-worn and utterly predictable lines-o'-crap from the Bill O'Reilly play book. Further, in order to be able to simply dismiss me out of hand, your esteemed group leader has compounded Giuliani's crime by cheerfully lumping ME in with your insane and childish view of all liberals: America-hating, commie-loving, anarchistic and all on the dole! In objective reality, however, I find it supremely difficult to imagine that any of you here have contributed anything even close to what I have done in my lifetime to benefit humanity at large. The contents of this thread comprise a perfect example of the reason I so seldom elect to interact on line. Oh, what the hell, let's upgrade that to NEVER. Goodbye, and best of luck to you in the New World Order!
I respect and enjoy talking to all of you, whether or not I agree with your politics. The only way that a political discussion can take part is if people will discuss the issues, as they see them, without demanding that everyone else conform to their thinking. In the event that you are referring to me, I don't know why you chose to personalize anything that has been said here. In fact no one here has said anything that went any further than your characterization of anyone who dares question our king as a conservative, as you choose to define a conservative. For example, my reference was to Obama. You took it as being a reference to yourself. That was on you, as I certainly didn't do that. No, I did not vote for Obama, and I truly believe that I'd prefer to have Putin as our president than Obama, since Putin at least appears to be wanting to further the interests of his country while it seems that Obama would rather see his country in defeat. I did not vote for Obama, but neither did I vote for McCain or for Romney. This is the only political sub-forum that we have, and it may not be for everyone. It is a discussion forum, however, and not a battlefield. The likelihood of anyone seeing any victories here are slim to none. I have enjoyed your participation in this forum, and I don't mind at all that you disagree with me on politics. All I ask for is the same.
Now, I am not sure, but I believe Peter was referring to my wife. She did a little scolding and yes, Peter, myself, and my wife are indeed internet friends. Just to be a bit "off topic," but trying to stay on the same trampoline I have to give out a small piece of information that all of us sometimes forget. Whether we are talking about politics, religion, or the rose bush on the back fence people are going to disagree. If that disagreement comes between friends then it was not a friendship to begin with. If all it takes to have a friend is to find a "yes" man then all I would have to do is give 10 bucks to a wino and he will listen to everything I have to put out without any disagreement whatsoever. If Peter does come back or doesn't is his business. But to discontinue a friendship over political views is completely assinine and should be viewed by everyone reading this as a small challenge. Check the value you may have on friendship. If O'Bama can end it, you're probably not a very good friend to have nor does anyone really want to look for one who bases friendship on a personal need to have a yes person.
Although I totally understand and appreciate your defense of Yvonne, your resorting to characterizing me as 'looking for yes men' is EXACTLY the type of personal defamation that has ALWAYS permeated the conservative mindset. You and I have each been well aware of the political orientation of the other and it has not gotten in the way of a happy and comfortable meeting of the minds on any number of other topics. And if you know me at all, then you realize that there is simply no one on the planet who is LESS interested in cultivating suck-ups than I. The thing that infuriates me so is NOT that we differ over ideologies, but that 'your side' appears not to have any other rebuttal to 'my side' than to bellow, "America-hating, communistic, anarchistic, Welfare-bait!" This is SUPREMELY offensive to me and, quite frankly, I had rather desperately hoped for something considerably better from you and your wife. While my latest comments on the thread were originally intended to apply ONLY to a cessation of participation on THIS site, it's difficult for me to envision continuing at all in view of everything that has been said.
Just to satisfy any onlookers, the above was sent via e-mail to me as well as being posted. So, I imagine that a reply in the forum would be in order. But, what I did was send an e-mail back to Peter. The reply was simple but hopefully thought worthy. What was in the reply to him was not of any consequence to anyone else viewing these postings. Merely know this. We are all individuals with individual likes and dislikes in a miriade of subjects. To merely say that all people in this catagory believe this, and all people in that catagory believe that, is ludicrous. It is hard, for some, to agree to disagree and move on. For me, it is easy. I state a case as diplomatically as I can and allow it to do whatever. If all else fails, I punt and sometimes punting hurts everyone included or helps heal. My e-mail to him was a combination of stating my case, and a punt. No matter the outcome, I will have done what intelligent people do. Care.
Ok, now is this all over? I sure hope so because I believe that we (forum) have a very good rapport here. And I'm not ready to miss any one of you.