@Chrissy Cross Perhaps such talk is more truthful given our advanced ages, but I have heard similar slogans all my life pertaining to a great variety of indignancies, ranging from gun control, to govt intervention in our lives. For example: Clinton Crime Bill: While being written, a number of states declared they would not honor it, or secede from the Union. Texas, Montana come to mind; some state Governors actually signed such legislation. Where is it today? No one "puts up or shuts up". Kill me to take my gun, if you come to do so. Agents show up, the guns are falling to the floor. NO GUTS. ALL MOUTHPLAY. Frank
No, I don't like this at all. Egads, what did you do for a living? Where did you learn all this stuff?
Maybe mostly, but not always. Many a survivalist camp or militia has ended up six feet under at the hands of the Feds, after a shootout, and let's not forget the wackos at Waco that took the ole 'death before dishonor' route, Jonestown, etc.
I didn't intend for the above to be a serious comment @Shirley Martin. It is a crude remark and I sincerely apologize. It seems a good time to take some time off and work on my people skills. Again, apologizes.
@Neville Telen You do not understand, obviously, what happened at Waco. A bunch of people who believed in God remained "holed-up" as you put it, within their church. That, they had every right to do. Over 25 of them were minor children ranging from very young and up. The reason given by U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno for using extreme tactics to bring the folks out, was that "children were being molested". We all saw the video shot by a reporter from afar which showed a U.S. military tank drive a hole through the wall. Upon withdrawing it's appurtenance, which turned out to be a cannon-mounted flame thrower, burning napalm was still drooling forth from it. Moments later, the building erupted in flames. U.S. officials tried weakly to claim the Davidians had started the fire themselves, but the world saw differently. Our government had reached a new standard of policy for dealing with "molested children": kill all of them and their "molesters". On that one our leaders sank to new depths of depravity. Frank
I understand quite well what happened. They did whatever they did to bring themselves to the attention of the Feds. Child molestation? Buying too many guns? Something else? We will never know what brought them under the gunsights. Most are dead, the survivors are either in prison or under a 'gag order', and the Feds cannot be trusted to say. Whatever caused it, the end result was quite predictable. When the Feds came a calling, the Waco bunch had a choice to make. As you already mentioned, either "the guns are falling to the floor" and its "ALL MOUTHPLAY"...or you talk the talk AND back it up...and most likely end up dead. They had a chance to submit to authority, but once you wait until the stormtroopers launch their attack, its too late to surrender. Flame thrower? Why is that surprising? Feds dropped a bomb on the SLA years before, and have been rooting out survivalist and militia camps with deadly force ever since. . Uhhh, where did the quote "holed-up" come from?
@Neville Telen I greatly like your approach to this, and appreciate now more fully that when you posted earlier, you knew more than was supposed, by your writing. Unfortunately, the sound of your post above seems to accept the killing of children, complete innocents, as being necessary. I suspect the main fact of the matter is that a Davidian fired upon agents. What has not been revealed is a little-known event during the unfolding of the scenerio where an FBI Supervisor pulled up in front of the doors of the compound, asking to speak with leader David Koresh, who responded as he had been instructed to by long-time acquaintance and friend, the County Sheriff. The FBI agent carried a machine gun, resting upon his vehicle's doorframe. Testimony later revealed he had never fired the arm before. Koresh appeared through the door carrying a small child, to communicate with the agent, who promptly began firing at him, killing the child, and mortally wounding Koresh, who quickly retreated inside. Later, the agent testified the arm had, "gotten away on him". If you like, I can provide actual names, badge numbers, and such, to corroborate this scene. I'd rather not. It opens too many previous mental wounds; I've tried to forget.] Frank
I did not say it was necessary, I contend that the end result was easily predictable. It did not take a genius to watch it unfold, and halfway through know with some certainty there would be blood, there would be lots of dying, and it would most likely end up another Jonestown scenario. If you ask the Feds I got no doubt they would swear it was necessary, and if you ask the survivors, I got no doubt they would swear it was unnecessary. I don't have the facts, so I cannot say what was or was not necessary, and what I do know is unreliable. Whatever little the survivors have said may or may not be anywhere near the truth, and having looked into your other posts, I am aware that you have at least some knowledge of The Establishment's penchant for propaganda, disinformation, misinformation, misdirection, etc., so it can be assumed their statements are equally untrustworthy. Where lies the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but? I doubt it will ever be known unless another Snowden leaks the intell. I can say with reasonable certainty that both sides did not give a hoot about the children. As I recall, before the attack, some people surrendered,and managed to make it into custody without getting shot down, so Koresh knew it was possible. When the Feds demanded the children, it was refused. Koresh was clearly thinking that the children could either be used as a human shield or as a bargaining chip later, and even when that was disproven by the agent "firing at him, killing the child", still no children were sent out. At that point anyone of reasonable intelligence could deduce that the Feds had zero problem killing a child to off an adult, an attack was imminent, the probability of survival was slight, and the compound would most likely become a graveyard...and still no children were sent out. As for the Feds, in for a penny in for a pound. Once the first kid bit the dust, all the others became expendables (you don't try to burn people out a bunker unless you do not give a dang if they survive).
@Bill Boggs , I read it in a fictional book about the collapse of society after the electrical grid was attacked. If you stop and think about, it makes sense. Where would you bury all those city dwellers even if you had the manpower to bury them?
Everybody looks at the negative effect of no electricity. Maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel it would make people come out of their basements and start talking face to face and finally find we are all in the same boat and quit fighting.
We have had extremely strong winds overnight and today. Our power went out sometime during the night; probably from a fallen tree limb falling on a power line. I got up to no electricity. No coffee. Day-amn! How an I going to get my day started without my coffee? My son brought his little gas burner over. I got out my old stove top percolator and he brewed me up a few cups of coffee. Ahhhhhhh! It certainly makes me appreciate electricity. There is almost nothing we can do without it. The only thing I could do was read a book.
I like the way you write, Ken! You use paragraphs to seperate your points on the subject. I do the same, but I also seperate sentences, too. Hal Pollner