I have been holding my tongue (or fingers) for quite some time in order to make better sense of things and I have finally come up with one question, to which you may be the judge. To say one thing is wrong but not have a solution to that wrong is not very Biblical. The Bible is pretty much always clear cut and makes it our responsibility to react correctly according to scripture. Now, if we establish that abortion in all instances is Biblically wrong then what would you have happen to the perpetrators of it? The Noaic covenant (Gen. 9:6) calls for, in simple terms, blood for blood. Uh, that's death to the mother in this case and probably the person helping with the abortion. In the Mosaic covenant (the law) as prescribed by say, Ex. 21:22-23 there is an actual accounting to be had for those people who would kill an unborn child. Although verse 22 is unclear as to what the "mischief" is I can suggest that charging the mother or father for the abortion could be called mischief which would lead us to verse 23 whereby someone has to die. The mother, wanting the abortion is one culprit and the one doing the abortion is another entity so obviously both should have to die. Since we already know that capitol punishment does very little to deter murder in all other realms then what again would you suggest, using Christian parallels, should happen to those accomplices and mother for an abortion?
I was going to stay out of this, and pretty much will except for this one comment. One problem with determining whether someone can be a Christian and still be in favor of abortion is that we don't all define the terms in the same way. @Babs Hunt actually covered that area, pretty much, in that she defined her terms near the beginning of the thread. You may not agree with her definition of what a Christian is, but it does give the basis upon which her opinions are formed. In the end, God will decide who is and who is not a Christian, but we do need to have a working idea of what it means to be a Christian if we intend to live as one. We may disagree on the definitions and that's all right. God will let you know if you're wrong later. Some people have a very loose working definition of what it means to be a Christian. For some, I fear their definitions of the term are so loose that they will be told, when it is too late, "I never knew you." But that's not for me to say. I believe that abortion is sin. True, there are a lot of sins and Christians sin all the time. We can be forgiven for our sins. Can we be so easily forgiven if we decided that our own ethical standards are more accurate than God's, that a particular sin is not really a sin, or that it might be a sin but we're going to encourage it anyhow? I don't know, but I wouldn't want to take that chance. Taking the Lord's name in vain is also a sin, yet I do that once in a while. I don't plan to do so in advance, but it comes out once in a while. I pray that God can forgive me for that, and I think that maybe He will. But would He forgive me if I decided that, screw it, a word is a word and I'll use whatever words I want. Who is He to tell me what kind of language I can use when I hit my thumb with a hammer? Again, I don't know for sure, but I think it's fair to say that it's less likely that He would forgive a conscious decision on my part to defy Him, now and in the future. I am thinking, also, that it would be even worse if I went around encouraging others to ignore God's request that we not use His name in vain because, you know, it makes me feel a lot better to know that I'm not the only one doing it. How about if I did ask Christ to come into my heart but I hadn't really gotten around to reading the whole Bible, or if I attended a church where the church leaders took the Lord's name in vain too, and I honestly didn't know that this was a sin -- would that still be a sin? Well yeah, I'm sure it would still be a sin but I'm not so sure that I would be held eternally responsible for violating a law that I didn't know about. Is ignorance of the law an excuse in God's mind? I hope so. So I believe that abortion is a sin. It is also a sin to murder another adult, but we know that God can forgive a person for murder. Again though, will He forgive someone who decides that he knows better than God, and that there isn't really anything wrong with killing someone as long as the victim is really annoying? I don't know. I am not God, but I do know that I wouldn't want to take my chances on that.
What you wrote is all through your eyes and beliefs. My beliefs are different. Nobody knows who is right or wrong. I'm not afraid of dying wether there is a heaven or not. I believe if there is, I will be there. And I believe this just as much as you or Babs believe otherwise. There are many beliefs and non beliefs in this world. Although I don't agree with Babs on religion, I do like her as she loves her children and grandchildren just as I love mine. I should probably stay away from the abortion posts in general. One last thought before I leave this post for good.... I didn't live my life the way I did with the thought or hope that I would go to heaven...it never crosses my mind. I just always felt that it was the right way to live.
I hope this won't cause the thread to go off-topic, but figure your statements above make this as good a place as any to address this: Although I never even heard of this til recent years, some people believe being a Christian rides on getting/being 'saved.' Virtually everybody else, though, is in tune with what one of my high school teachers said: 'following the ways and teachings of Jesus Christ.'
@Ken Anderson - I have regrets in my life and a couple I 'cannot' forgive myself for On a daily basis I torture myself with thoughts of it. That is a life sentence for something I did wrong. I am sure a lot of people feel this way too I'm a believer but I'm not religious but I do try to live a good and decent life But to tell me that God would not forgive me, does not ring true, because he would know how I have stressed and suffered emotionally, therefore I regret very much and He should understand that and be forgiving
God will forgive us anything but in order to be forgiven, we have to acknowledge that we have been wrong, I think. And it probably helps if we aren't vowing to do the same thing again.
Well that's right - no good going through this torture if I'm planning on doing the same mistake again Although I have known a few church goers that have their confession thinking the slate is wiped clean only to go and make another batch of sins to be confessed
There's the nail on the head Ken, it's whether or not people decide/choose to believe if something is wrong or right. And yes, along with asking for forgiveness, repent I think comes first in the bible "repent and be saved" I think it says. Things is, when people "create" their own ideas of God, they can decide anything is ok that they themselves "feel" or "believe". How many times have we heard it said "I'm sorry" but with no repentance (changing the behaviour), I don't see the apology being valid.
I agree Patsy, but it sure was "someone's" great idea! I think that would be great, if only it were true. I can't believe it myself.
The Bible tells us that each of us will be judged individually, and that we are not to judge one another. We are to examine our own life, in the light of God's word, and where we see sin, we are to confess it and repent, which means making a behavioral u-turn. Nothing should distract us from this self-examination. There is no sin that cannot be forgiven by God.
I have to toss this in here: are you and others here aware that the second part of your first statement has become a 'trend' in the last couple of years to cover all sorts of horrible behaviors and crimes- even crimes-against-persons? One of the hairiest examples: a woman abused a child, the child died; as there was no way her attorney could convince anyone that she was not guilty of the crime she was accused of, her closing argument to the jury was that they could not convict her because 'only you who is without sin may cast the first stone.' It's become quite a way to manipulate people. And I've even read comments where Christians say they should not serve on juries for that specific reason- that they 'cannot judge others.'
I've talked in-person that have been so afraid the make an apology. So afraid that they are going to somehow vanish if they admit they were wrong. Or all their focus is on what the other "may" have done to them. I've never spoken to anyone that made an apology, no expectations on the other to apologize back, that haven't felt a ton of brick unloaded from their backs. The bible also says to take the splinter out of your own eye, before you try to point out one in someone else's eye.
The Bible also tells us that we will be judged. I think what these verses are warning us of is that if we create a harsher standard by which we use to judge others, we will also be held to that standard.