In reference to a prior post, in Jeremiah 29:11, the people who are being spoken to are the Israelites, not the world. But, if we follow along we find that God also indicated in many parts of scripture that “IF” you do this and that I Will do this and that. Now, if folks would think about it, whilst speaking to their child, good parents are not talking to the neighborhood but their child. They do not promise the neighborhood an ice cream cone if they all get above a C on their report cards, they promise their own child. And incidentally, throughout history God has kept His promise and the conditions under which that promise would be kept. Every time the Jews started to back peddle as a Nation, they fell. Every time they did what they were told to do, they became great. Now, as far as disease and whatever else plagues mankind, when the duo was thrown out of the garden, they were told what was coming up but whatever may harm or kill the body does not kill the spirit. No where in the Bible does it say the God killed any being He created. The flesh yes, but not the spirit. Certainly if God was going to kill anything you’d think the first one would have been Lucifer. The vessel may be broken but that which was contained in the vessel is still intact. When we study spiritual things we should be thinking in spiritual terms.
Congess had it in their power , a century ago, to prevent child trafficking, sex trafficking, abortion, drug trafficking, and thousands of corporate deceptions in products from cars to phones to drugs to medicines to clothes, and so on, ad infinitum. Perhaps this is so, but you followed up with seemingly biased statements not fitting the facts: Just one statement... unless moved to another thread, for example: This is not even remotely true (except in name only) , by all observations so far in the last century >>
One of the things we miss when we read the Bible is the culture of the time which is why some added research is necessary. Some miracles, like the Lazarus event, are even greater than the miracle we thought them to be. Much of what we now call a “wake” was derived from ancient culture in that the belief was that a person’s spirit hovered or stayed close to the dead body for 3 days. If after the third day had passed and the spirit didn’t return to the body then it was accepted by all that the person was indeed dead. Jesus waited for the forth day to perform the Lazarus miracle. No one could say that it fell in line with the beliefs of the day. It had to be a miracle. Note: After Jesus was taken to the tomb, according to His own words, He rose on the 3rd day. A minor miracle and a stumbling block to some, a full blown miracle to others. Now, as far as me believing in miracles? Absolutely, Positively, Without a Doubt, Heck Yes I do believe in miracles. Too many events in my life that I and many others have witnessed that cannot be explained in any other terms but “a miracle”. I am science minded to the extremes and if science cannot explain it but it happened without the permission of science then I’d say unequivocally that it is a miracle and not guided by the guess work of mankind,.
Like Jonah, 3 days AND 3 nights ... .. a little over or right at/after 72 hours.... (it would take days to months, a dozen or a hundred threads, to pursue the research to overcome the trouable/ the differences between centuries of tradition and the Bible) .... if it is still available somewhere online, best look there, or to heaven, yes, to the Father Creator for His revelation?) This is the only way in harmony with all Scripture, in the original languages, God's Plan, and God's Purpose. Perfectly Accomplished By Him.
One of the problems that I have always had about religion is that I can no more relate to the Culture of the time anymore than I can relate to the Culture of Neanderthall time.
Coming from you that is very surprising. You have gone across borders and seen the cultures of many people and obviously adapted to those cultures whilst doing the tourist thing. There are some people on this earth who basically live the same way their forefathers lived a thousand or two thousand years ago. So far as the 3 day waiting period for a spirit to return to the body, many cultures still observe that premise as I’m sure a person of your background probably knows.
I just don't believe the body has a spirit that is left or goes anywhere upon death and once the physical body is no more, all that remains of the deceased is in the memories of the survivors.
I must say that you went totally around the block from other cultures to what you believe about the spirit. You asked if we believe in the 37 noted miracles in the 4 gospels ( of which only one appears in all 4 books) and you are getting some answers. Now, everyone here knows your personal opinion which is more Atheistic than Humanistic I might say but still, everyone knows. I do not expect everyone else to believe as I do nor should you expect everyone to believe as you. When you challenge me on a question I answer the questions very straight forward (and very stoically I might add) to which you always say you do not understand or it’s junk or some such without first trying to do the research on your own. You wrote that you like conflict. Okay, I get it. You’ve buried a lot of people and all you have seen is the empty shell whereas I believe what is beyond that shell. I respect your views and whether or not you respect mine doesn’t matter. The miracles are in the books and all around you this very day but it’s your decision not to explore them more heavily. In the end, we will both know the truth but the sad part of it is that if my beliefs are the right ones, well, let’s just say that it does sadden me.
This thread has some interesting deviations that scream for a counter response, but I'll stick to the OP topic because it alone warrants enough attention. Here's some rational for believing in all of the Bible's miracles: The evidence for God is apparent through observation of the universe, world, and life around us and our scientific discoveries that require a supernatural explanation for this amazing creation. If this premise is true, then the god who created the laws of science for the universe certainly would have the ability to manipulate these laws at will in order to perform miracles. The evidence for the Bible is supported by witness testimony, fulfilled prophesy, archaeological discoveries, historical writings, scientific insight, and textual criticism. If this premise is true, then the Bible's account of creation and other miracles should be taken as historically accurate and authoritative. Allow me to make two points - one for the believer and one for the unbeliever: Believers who rightfully accept the virgin birth of Christ, which is unanimously determined as scientifically impossible, yet deny the Genesis 6-day creation account, which has abundant scientific evidence, should be troubled with their inconsistent doctrinal rationale. If God's words (through Moses) of the Genesis miracles aren't right, then why should his words (through the apostles) of the virgin birth be considered right? Unbelievers who deny the Bible's miracles generally do so for two reasons. They either do so as a willful rejection of God's rule over their lives, or they simply discount all supernatural acts or spiritual beings. This is the naturalistic or materialistic attitude permeating modern science and much of society today. To these people, I'd ask how you discount the numerous, well documented, medical miracles that are being done throughout the world today? Are you not aware of this, or do you choose to deny any evidence of God's presence in the world? Here's a worthy 13 minute video of a modern day, believable miracle. If there's a God overruling the laws of physics today, it shouldn't be so difficult to accept the testimony of his miracles throughout the Bible.
Lon, I love your posts and also the part you play in responding to these topics, for it encourages me to see so many who are interested in the truths of life. I, too, am still seeking answers, and I don't think we'll know some things until we're "on the other side", and can see more clearly. As far as one's spirit not continuing after death, I desire to believe that is false. I know that you will not be surprised by this, as I have written about it before. I love the statements spoken by Jim Valvano, when he was making his famous last plea for sports fans and others to help in the fight against cancer. He said: ".....Cancer can take away all my physical abilities. It cannot touch my mind, it cannot touch my heart, and it cannot touch my soul. Those three things are going to carry on forever...." and I am always encouraged every year by his unwavering faith. I love the words he spoke and also love to watch his speech every year as I am a basketball fan, and cancer has also ravaged members of my family. I also think they are true words. (there may a little doubt about the first one, though)
Let me be very clear. I totally respect and sometimes even admire the religious beliefs of others despite the fact that I myself am a card carrying member of The American Humanist Association. I am a humanist, which means, in part, that I have tried to behave decently without rewards or punishment after I am dead.
Bob, I've learned that it's pointless to argue with an Atheist firm in his beliefs, but I'll interject late in the conversation here with two observations. You say that you're seeking religious truth and want answers to your numerous questions, implying that you'd accept Christianity if your scientific and theological objections could be satisfied. The fact is that you've received many answers to the questions you struggle with, but choose to reject all of them. You consistently reference secular web sources for your world view beliefs. As long as you read and respect articles that reject God, the Bible, and anything supernatural, you will continue to find justification for your non-belief. The fact is that there is an abundance of information on the internet supporting the positions of both believers and unbelievers. If you want to maintain your unbelief, then keep on reading your secular sources from History, NatGeo, Wiki, and thousands of other sites. But don't kid yourself into thinking that you're seeking religious truth. You won't find religious truth from secular sources. If and when your heart changes to wanting to seek God, you'll find many good answers to your questions on-line from Christian apologetic sources. All of the theological objections, supposed Bible contradictions, scientific, historical, and moral value issues have been thoroughly addressed - enough to rationally satisfy anyone with an open heart and mind receptive to the supernatural truth. Those who seek God find him. As Paul says in Romans 1:20: For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. I think most believers accept this reality based upon blind faith, which is ok perhaps. But for those of us that want to justify this faith with evidence or seek answers to troubling questions, we're blessed today to have an abundance of supporting material - if you look in the right places. I hope you get there Bob. When your heart steers your mind, you'll find your answers and the truth that over 2 billion other people in the world have found to be the most important revelation in life.
Why do you think it is safe to say ? Is it because you have heard that before, someplace ? Yes, even some Christians believe that, as well as unbelievers. But, if you seek the truth, if you seek the Creator, you will find that that is false. If you do not seek the truth, or if you do not seek the Creator, you won't likely find out. No number of billion of Christians nor billions of unbelievers can be trusted - flesh is flesh, and is not helpful in finding the truth. Closer to truth is the seemingly blanket statement: everybody lies. In you own words here, let me say, I think it is safe to say everybody lies. At least this is safer than what you said, eh? Honest is so rare - have you ever in your life met anyone in person who did not lie ? Sometimes I mention to people, in person, you may not ever find the truth in people on earth , but in the Bible, from the Father , is the One you can trust to find the TRUTH from. If not, none of anyone has any hope at all.